Yellow Light Bulb Over Head
Post ideas and suggestions on new features or improvements here.
posted on March 19th, 2012, 5:26 pm
I was thinking with this new system of 'defense' 'offence' 'all around' etc
What about a ship classification for Old ships, and state of the line. There would also be an in between route for ships that aren't that old, but aren't that new either.
So ship given an 'old' status, get increased damaged from a variety of ships. New ships take perhaps slightly less damage, but can cause increased damage to 'regular ships'.
Some examples: There might only be very few 'old ships', but essentially, these are ships where every faction in the universe as seen and fought, and they know this is the weakness of that ship. So ships like e1s, ktingas, etc would take slightly increased damage.
A regular ship are main line ships that receive slightly less damage from the old ships only. Those ships are being built with better tech, and better overall performance.
Now new ships of the line are those that no one has ever seen, not only that, but they are being built to counter regular ships. So they take significantly less damage (K not that significant, but a fair percent, perhaps in regards to specific ships as well), but also give extra damage to regulars, well slightly extra.
So, Old = 0, Regular = R, New =N
O deals slightly less damage to R, and even less damage to N, take slightly more damage from R, and even more damage from N. O vs. O is par.
R deals slightly more damage to O, and deals slightly less to N, takes slightly less damage from O, and deals slightly less to N. R vs R is par.
N deals slightly more damage to R, and even more damage to O, takes slightly less damage from R, and even less from o. N vs N is par.
As general outline.
O's and N's would be fewer, R's are going to be your bulk regardless of anything.
Perhaps just an extra reason to build Defiants, phalanx, and sovereign. And extra reason to build norexan and tavara. Etc etc. Neghvar.
Every faction I think should get 3 or so new ship classes.
It is based on things like known performance. All those times you hear bridge officers talking about ship X, as in this ships known max speed is whatever, and we are either faster or slower. Old ships are less of a threat. New ships are more of a threat being unknown and all.
Now! With this idea... I have another Idea. Research Improvements.
A player has option to Research Improvements on any three ship classes. So all ship classes are selectable, up to three can be upgraded. These improvements just give a little extra edge to the ship. Plasma conduit upgrades, energy transfer speed increased, shield buffer zone bla bla bla. This gives it +1 in rank. I.e. was old, is now improved to Regular. or was Regular and now is improved to N. New ships are already new, and can not receive improvements, no improvements have been researched at all yet.
Um yeah...
Something like that.
What about a ship classification for Old ships, and state of the line. There would also be an in between route for ships that aren't that old, but aren't that new either.
So ship given an 'old' status, get increased damaged from a variety of ships. New ships take perhaps slightly less damage, but can cause increased damage to 'regular ships'.
Some examples: There might only be very few 'old ships', but essentially, these are ships where every faction in the universe as seen and fought, and they know this is the weakness of that ship. So ships like e1s, ktingas, etc would take slightly increased damage.
A regular ship are main line ships that receive slightly less damage from the old ships only. Those ships are being built with better tech, and better overall performance.
Now new ships of the line are those that no one has ever seen, not only that, but they are being built to counter regular ships. So they take significantly less damage (K not that significant, but a fair percent, perhaps in regards to specific ships as well), but also give extra damage to regulars, well slightly extra.
So, Old = 0, Regular = R, New =N
O deals slightly less damage to R, and even less damage to N, take slightly more damage from R, and even more damage from N. O vs. O is par.
R deals slightly more damage to O, and deals slightly less to N, takes slightly less damage from O, and deals slightly less to N. R vs R is par.
N deals slightly more damage to R, and even more damage to O, takes slightly less damage from R, and even less from o. N vs N is par.
As general outline.
O's and N's would be fewer, R's are going to be your bulk regardless of anything.
Perhaps just an extra reason to build Defiants, phalanx, and sovereign. And extra reason to build norexan and tavara. Etc etc. Neghvar.
Every faction I think should get 3 or so new ship classes.
It is based on things like known performance. All those times you hear bridge officers talking about ship X, as in this ships known max speed is whatever, and we are either faster or slower. Old ships are less of a threat. New ships are more of a threat being unknown and all.
Now! With this idea... I have another Idea. Research Improvements.
A player has option to Research Improvements on any three ship classes. So all ship classes are selectable, up to three can be upgraded. These improvements just give a little extra edge to the ship. Plasma conduit upgrades, energy transfer speed increased, shield buffer zone bla bla bla. This gives it +1 in rank. I.e. was old, is now improved to Regular. or was Regular and now is improved to N. New ships are already new, and can not receive improvements, no improvements have been researched at all yet.
Um yeah...
Something like that.
posted on March 19th, 2012, 8:52 pm
I guess i see what you are saying but typically the older ships have lower values in comparison to their modern counterpart. The same is true for the cutting edge ships. They usually have higher values than the mainstream ships. IMO its a mechanic thats already there. Maybe i dont understand what you are driving at.
posted on March 19th, 2012, 9:07 pm
Dircome wrote: Maybe i dont understand what you are driving at.
Hes just driving at an idea toward changing the game in some way.
Its not a bad idea but its also not very practicle. Yes there are older ships but most older ships get buffed maybe not too brand new ship specs but they do get upgrades because of the advancements in technology. other wise they would just retire that ship and any other ship in that class. there would be no point in keeping a ship that is at that much of a disadvantage.
Im not trying to bag on your idea or anything but it just doesnt seem plausible. were back at the idea of the difference between reality (star trek anyway) and a game. the reason ships have less defense and fire power in game is for balancing. To bring up an example, the bug ship is not a weak ship what so ever but we know that but they needed an early game ship and they used the bug ship.
Although I could see doing research that could give you a couple minute advantage to you in which doing the research or scouting would allow you to find a weakness in a ships design.
posted on March 19th, 2012, 9:31 pm
hmm.
(and, before getting into it, whether idea is good or bad... who cares, not every idea is going to be great, so either way)
yeah i guess it might already be in game as a mechanic with lower and stronger values for defense offence etc
but in my view, there is a difference
tech tree is more of a ship size thing, or ship strength. tech tree you start out small, and go large.
it is not so much ship based on time. like you can only build old ships at first, then you go up the tech tree to your newest ship. so for instance, intrepid might be a fairly new ship that is in lower tech tree.
so again, when I think of tech tree, it is reflective of size and strength, quality in that sense.i see it that way. but imagine if devs created a brand new ship design at the bottom end of the tech tree... I guess they could just make it so that the stats are really nice, but they can't make the ship a battleship at that stage in the tech tree. even if it was designed to engage a whole bunch of other faction ships that size.
I mean, whether the ship was designed 100 years ago, or 3 years ago, all ships are going to have shield generators that offer defence, and all ships are going to have phasers and some kind of torps, that do some kind of damage. But the systems will be upgraded and you ll get ships with better redundancies perhaps, or what have you.
For example, none of our early game ships use quantum torps. You don't see that at all until battleships. But it could be that at some point they start building lower tier ships that use quantum torps, and if that happened, there is a mish mash. Yes the ship is lower tier, but its got state of the art equipment.
k anyways.
And as for all ships in the fleet being up to par, and having everything well off, like nothing in your fleet is going to suffer from old age (as if it were, they would be decommissioned or something). I dunno, I guess it depends on your views, but even old ships that have known weaknesses are going to be used in war if they are needed, or could serve some purpose. I hate to pick on klingons, but while those ktingas might have received some upgrades there should be something that tactical officers or captains know about the ship that help them engage them in combat.
I see the argument against my idea, and I'm ok with it either way. System values and ships place in the tech tree and all, and 'if we're at war, all the ships are ready for war' ... while I don't see that line of thought so well, oh well. I guess it could work for 'game reasons'.
But just to reiterate the point, its like a tech timeline within the tech tree. You could build newer ships within each subsection of the tech tree that has a valid influence. Having older low tier ships, and newer tier ships matters. And at the same time, different battleships at the end.
But yes, I admit, to some extent, FO might already account for this. I think it would be neat as an explicit game mechanic, but it need not be. For instance, bugs are not in my view the best example here. They could be very new low tier vessels. They're not necessarily ancient ships that we just give the dominion because they need early game ships.
(and, before getting into it, whether idea is good or bad... who cares, not every idea is going to be great, so either way)
yeah i guess it might already be in game as a mechanic with lower and stronger values for defense offence etc
but in my view, there is a difference
tech tree is more of a ship size thing, or ship strength. tech tree you start out small, and go large.
it is not so much ship based on time. like you can only build old ships at first, then you go up the tech tree to your newest ship. so for instance, intrepid might be a fairly new ship that is in lower tech tree.
so again, when I think of tech tree, it is reflective of size and strength, quality in that sense.i see it that way. but imagine if devs created a brand new ship design at the bottom end of the tech tree... I guess they could just make it so that the stats are really nice, but they can't make the ship a battleship at that stage in the tech tree. even if it was designed to engage a whole bunch of other faction ships that size.
I mean, whether the ship was designed 100 years ago, or 3 years ago, all ships are going to have shield generators that offer defence, and all ships are going to have phasers and some kind of torps, that do some kind of damage. But the systems will be upgraded and you ll get ships with better redundancies perhaps, or what have you.
For example, none of our early game ships use quantum torps. You don't see that at all until battleships. But it could be that at some point they start building lower tier ships that use quantum torps, and if that happened, there is a mish mash. Yes the ship is lower tier, but its got state of the art equipment.
k anyways.
And as for all ships in the fleet being up to par, and having everything well off, like nothing in your fleet is going to suffer from old age (as if it were, they would be decommissioned or something). I dunno, I guess it depends on your views, but even old ships that have known weaknesses are going to be used in war if they are needed, or could serve some purpose. I hate to pick on klingons, but while those ktingas might have received some upgrades there should be something that tactical officers or captains know about the ship that help them engage them in combat.
I see the argument against my idea, and I'm ok with it either way. System values and ships place in the tech tree and all, and 'if we're at war, all the ships are ready for war' ... while I don't see that line of thought so well, oh well. I guess it could work for 'game reasons'.
But just to reiterate the point, its like a tech timeline within the tech tree. You could build newer ships within each subsection of the tech tree that has a valid influence. Having older low tier ships, and newer tier ships matters. And at the same time, different battleships at the end.
But yes, I admit, to some extent, FO might already account for this. I think it would be neat as an explicit game mechanic, but it need not be. For instance, bugs are not in my view the best example here. They could be very new low tier vessels. They're not necessarily ancient ships that we just give the dominion because they need early game ships.
posted on March 19th, 2012, 9:50 pm
godsvoice wrote:(and, before getting into it, whether idea is good or bad... who cares, not every idea is going to be great, so either way)
I never said the idea was good or bad i was just expressing my opinion on to why i didnt think it would wor, to spark some debate and get other ideas out there.
I think its a good idea give lower tier ships the ability to be more effective in later game situations.
So would this implement another aspect of the tech tree you have standard teching up and then you have this idea as well. Or would this replace the idea of an overall buff to off and def that all ships currently get?
godsvoice wrote:bugs are not in my view the best example here. They could be very new low tier vessels. They're not necessarily ancient ships that we just give the dominion because they need early game ships.
And with the bug ship i was just expressing that most lower tier ships are weaker and in DS9 the bug ship was no weak ship at all. I was just pointing out something most people know. The fact that all ships in the FLOPS universe are for balance but ships in the Star Trek universe do not vary nearly that much.
posted on March 20th, 2012, 12:55 am
This would be an add-on to the already in store version of offensive defensive etc and current tech tree.
Within the tech tree, there would be something like a tech timeline.
In order to make it meaningful though... the way I think of it would change quite a bit. So maybe other interpretations to make it more practical.
So while we have research stations that offer upward movement in the tech tree, we could create research stations that offer upward movement in tech timeline.
So let's say we have two yards and three research stations. At first, you are getting a small number of ships from first yard available. We grant better ships, and the second yard through extra research stations. If we were either to introduce new ships specifically to meet the role of 'new designs' or simply restrict already existing ships i.e. for feds defiants and sovereigns, we could then introduce them with a new form of research.
So even if you have all the regular set up ready to go, you would only get new designs like the defiant and sovereign, or norexan, through the tech timeline research station.
We could also make going for new designs quicker than going for regular tech up. So let's say we gave the antares yard a new ship around the akira level, either less powerful or powerful. In general, to get to that level we need chassis 2. Instead, we create 'research station whatever'. This gets us right from saber to new design in an instant. We aren't investing in regular ships like monsoon or intrepids, we want ships that too a bit better damage right away. So we get this new ship even faster, by going way of better tech timeline. We don't want bigger and stronger, we just want better. This vessel would than to better damage to most ships, especially if opponent has not invested in upgraded tech. But not so much that it blows balance, obviously, a vorcha is still a sizeable opponent.
The better ships can't be researched through regular tech tree. You would just never reach them. That may or may not be liked by the community though... so who can say. I think it would be quite neat.
Also, like I mentioned previous, this tech timeline research station would give potential upgrades to a few other ship classes. They just take new tech and say give us a better version of that ship moving on. Sort of like in Birth of the Federation where you want from Sovereign, to Sovereign II. I know the devs are not a fan of version 'II's' so obviously.. just rework our thinking of it. But it's not even enough to warrant a version 2, nothing is being changed like in e1 to e2 where its a whole new design, its just alternate upgrades.
Of course.. we do have things like shield upgrades, and weapons upgrades, that could arguably be almost the same thing we already have. But I think integrating it into the ships themselves would be sweet.
Anyways, either way. Sometimes ideas spark ideas that spark ideas.
Within the tech tree, there would be something like a tech timeline.
In order to make it meaningful though... the way I think of it would change quite a bit. So maybe other interpretations to make it more practical.
So while we have research stations that offer upward movement in the tech tree, we could create research stations that offer upward movement in tech timeline.
So let's say we have two yards and three research stations. At first, you are getting a small number of ships from first yard available. We grant better ships, and the second yard through extra research stations. If we were either to introduce new ships specifically to meet the role of 'new designs' or simply restrict already existing ships i.e. for feds defiants and sovereigns, we could then introduce them with a new form of research.
So even if you have all the regular set up ready to go, you would only get new designs like the defiant and sovereign, or norexan, through the tech timeline research station.
We could also make going for new designs quicker than going for regular tech up. So let's say we gave the antares yard a new ship around the akira level, either less powerful or powerful. In general, to get to that level we need chassis 2. Instead, we create 'research station whatever'. This gets us right from saber to new design in an instant. We aren't investing in regular ships like monsoon or intrepids, we want ships that too a bit better damage right away. So we get this new ship even faster, by going way of better tech timeline. We don't want bigger and stronger, we just want better. This vessel would than to better damage to most ships, especially if opponent has not invested in upgraded tech. But not so much that it blows balance, obviously, a vorcha is still a sizeable opponent.
The better ships can't be researched through regular tech tree. You would just never reach them. That may or may not be liked by the community though... so who can say. I think it would be quite neat.
Also, like I mentioned previous, this tech timeline research station would give potential upgrades to a few other ship classes. They just take new tech and say give us a better version of that ship moving on. Sort of like in Birth of the Federation where you want from Sovereign, to Sovereign II. I know the devs are not a fan of version 'II's' so obviously.. just rework our thinking of it. But it's not even enough to warrant a version 2, nothing is being changed like in e1 to e2 where its a whole new design, its just alternate upgrades.
Of course.. we do have things like shield upgrades, and weapons upgrades, that could arguably be almost the same thing we already have. But I think integrating it into the ships themselves would be sweet.
Anyways, either way. Sometimes ideas spark ideas that spark ideas.
posted on March 20th, 2012, 4:33 am
Mauling this over:
Perhaps two separate ways to get to Eraudi yard.
Scrap the chassis and what we know about star fleet engineering and science.
There are two ways to get better ships, tech tree, and tech timeline (I have nothing better to call it) through two different research stations. 1 station goes the route of tech tree, the other timeline.
Tech tree, you get akira, and access to eraudi units starting with e2. Tech timeline you get access from saber to these new shisp in antares (the one new design around akira level) but no other ship in antares, but you also get access to building eraudi. However, from Eraudi, all you can build is defiant and sovereign. Not e2 until you go tech tree.
This way, I can really go for ships that I want. I could rush more easily to a sovereign, but I would still need to pay for that sovereign, which is more expensive than an e2, and therefore can't really be abused. But no need wasting time with e2s if I don't want.
With different ship yards also being added, there could be a slightly altered version where new yards produce these ships. A singular research station, but two different large yards for a faction, one focusses on traditional ships, the other specializes in new ships.
Even if this is slightly already included in game mechanics balance wise, as in ships doing less or more damage, it could offer excitement in ship progression... I believe.
Perhaps two separate ways to get to Eraudi yard.
Scrap the chassis and what we know about star fleet engineering and science.
There are two ways to get better ships, tech tree, and tech timeline (I have nothing better to call it) through two different research stations. 1 station goes the route of tech tree, the other timeline.
Tech tree, you get akira, and access to eraudi units starting with e2. Tech timeline you get access from saber to these new shisp in antares (the one new design around akira level) but no other ship in antares, but you also get access to building eraudi. However, from Eraudi, all you can build is defiant and sovereign. Not e2 until you go tech tree.
This way, I can really go for ships that I want. I could rush more easily to a sovereign, but I would still need to pay for that sovereign, which is more expensive than an e2, and therefore can't really be abused. But no need wasting time with e2s if I don't want.
With different ship yards also being added, there could be a slightly altered version where new yards produce these ships. A singular research station, but two different large yards for a faction, one focusses on traditional ships, the other specializes in new ships.
Even if this is slightly already included in game mechanics balance wise, as in ships doing less or more damage, it could offer excitement in ship progression... I believe.
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