Supply "Warp-in"
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posted on April 6th, 2010, 12:26 am
What if we had a dificulty setting. New and Professional would be a good thing for some days. I cant tell you how long we often wait just trying to get the teams balance. Also, Dominus and Mort would have a special setting called god 
posted on April 6th, 2010, 1:06 am
funnystuffpictures wrote:What if we had a dificulty setting. New and Professional would be a good thing for some days. I cant tell you how long we often wait just trying to get the teams balance. Also, Dominus and Mort would have a special setting called god
That would leave Boggz as "der Uber-Deity"?
Maybe? No?
posted on April 6th, 2010, 2:33 am
Dominus_Noctis wrote:No offense to some people, but this also has to deal with the skill level as well as the faction/unit match up
Sure, The development of a game also depends on skills and fractions, but nevertheless one may consider battles of same fraction playing equally strong, equally unit-selecting intelligences too. The human players uniquness disguises the question of which pure gameplay features have which effect on the duration of a game.
Dominus_Noctis wrote:the Klingon cap as you might now is quite a bit higher than 1450 dil/tri. Hell, it starts at 1500 dil/tri
Do you want to impress me by a linear proportion of 2? You know me, i'm a physics student, i'm bound to think in orders of magnitude
I'm also aware if the Borg and Dominion are self-supplying. They have no long term supply costs at all.funnystuffpictures wrote:What if we had a dificulty setting. New and Professional would be a good thing for some days. I cant tell you how long we often wait just trying to get the teams balance. Also, Dominus and Mort would have a special setting called god
We probably could have a static handicap set at the beginning of a game. I just prefer a dynamic solution. Even a good player can have bad luck, and a dynamic balancing feature could reduce it's effect a little, making the game more exciting for a longer period.
posted on April 6th, 2010, 3:00 am
mimesot wrote:Do you want to impress me by a linear proportion of 2? You know me, i'm a physics student, i'm bound to think in orders of magnitude
Alright, Physics boy
. Time to extrapolate this idea into a more complex one, eh?Borg and Dominion may be self-supplying, but the very necessity to SPEND resources on setting up and maintaining those resources counts for more than just an objective look at it. Borg don't build supply until they near running out. That's right about the time they start making larger ships and puts a distinct halt on production.
Dominion can LOSE their supplygain by being attacked
.We probably could have a static handicap set at the beginning of a game. I just prefer a dynamic solution. Even a good player can have bad luck, and a dynamic balancing feature could reduce it's effect a little, making the game more exciting for a longer period.
I disagree. The game has to be won. Just because someone ends up with the upper hand does not means it's unbalanced. I think, with respect, that you're taking the supply thing too far
.posted on April 6th, 2010, 9:45 pm
Alright, keeper of the mighty hamster Let's get it more complex!
The borg supply economy is based upon investment in buildings. You can see the byung of such a station followed by an amrtization process, which makes the gained supply cost equal amounts of construction-resources during the duraion of amortization. In this case you have resource costs directly proportional to supply yield. Growth in resource production can be directly ransduced into growth in supply generation. If you expand very fast, supply production is no (except of the build time of the incubation centres) serious brake to your ship production.
In case of dominion the occurance of frighter's destruction reduces the duration of amortization, which increases the resource-costs per gained supply. Nevertheless the efford per supply ratio does not change, as your forces grow. Again, no slowing effect for mass-production.
From this, it appears, as if the borg and dominion supply economy provide an even less balaning (in context of game prolonging and advantage reducing) effect than the current supply-system. Perhaps the supplies shouldn't be used as smoothing feature at all, but then i think they shouldn't be taken as a soft-cap, but just another resource of different shortage-intervals.
Hmm ... i think most forum members are preferring the "hardcore" style of the game. Fast-paced and not very fault-tolerant.
I agree that supplies are not the ideal candidate for a game-smoothing feature. But i'm too fond of the warcraft's upkeep system or the Anno1701 reserve-funds by the queen to think, that FO should not have an (unique) equivalent itself.
Let's get it more complex!The borg supply economy is based upon investment in buildings. You can see the byung of such a station followed by an amrtization process, which makes the gained supply cost equal amounts of construction-resources during the duraion of amortization. In this case you have resource costs directly proportional to supply yield. Growth in resource production can be directly ransduced into growth in supply generation. If you expand very fast, supply production is no (except of the build time of the incubation centres) serious brake to your ship production.
In case of dominion the occurance of frighter's destruction reduces the duration of amortization, which increases the resource-costs per gained supply. Nevertheless the efford per supply ratio does not change, as your forces grow. Again, no slowing effect for mass-production.
From this, it appears, as if the borg and dominion supply economy provide an even less balaning (in context of game prolonging and advantage reducing) effect than the current supply-system. Perhaps the supplies shouldn't be used as smoothing feature at all, but then i think they shouldn't be taken as a soft-cap, but just another resource of different shortage-intervals.
Boggz wrote:I disagree. The game has to be won. Just because someone ends up with the upper hand does not means it's unbalanced. I think, with respect, that you're taking the supply thing too far
Hmm ... i think most forum members are preferring the "hardcore" style of the game. Fast-paced and not very fault-tolerant.
I agree that supplies are not the ideal candidate for a game-smoothing feature. But i'm too fond of the warcraft's upkeep system or the Anno1701 reserve-funds by the queen to think, that FO should not have an (unique) equivalent itself.
posted on April 7th, 2010, 2:33 am
I'm just saying that I don't think the WC3 upkeep system would be an appropriate one for this game. WC3's upkeep system works decently because expanding is not really as crucial in War3 as it is here.
In FO, expansions are an absolute necessity for anything bigger than a 1 v 1. Even in a 1 v 1 the person who keeps the expansion usually wins.
In WC3 the expansion is indeed a major boost and can let you continue to gain resources at a decent rate even if you're in high upkeep:
2 mines (high upkeep) = 2 mines x 4 gold per second = 8 g/ps
Vs. 1 mine at 10, 7, and 4 g/ps at low, medium, and high upkeep.
Warcraft also sees little harassment or splitting of forces like we see in FO. The maps are usually larger in FO and because everything is ranged there is a much high degree of harassment and "raids" than warcraft. Warcraft tends to be centered around decisive "Total Engagements" with little skirmishing and almost no raiding.
So.. back to upkeep, I feel that even if your opponent is fielding far too many ships for you to handle, you can still split up your ships and distinctly avoid a decisive engagement until you either:
A. Have what you need to counter a large fleet.
B. Have done your best to cripple your opponent's economy by using fast raiders to destroy mining.
If your opponent is keeping their ships in a "Victory Fleet", then you are given almost free reign to run amok amongst their economy. If that Victory fleet decides to move in your base, you're in deep trouble but they will still have to handle your Starbase and hopefully any defences you've gathered.
Supply buying for Borg and Dominion is really not a better or worse way of getting supplies, it's just different. If you ask me, Borg shouldn't HAVE to worry about supplies to much once they've made the major move into making 6+ incubators. They have 2 per-second resources they have to worry about that create a nice cap for them anyway.
Dominion have HUGE supply costs on EVERYTHING and MUST continue to harvest resources or they will end up spending ridiculous sums on purchasing.
I do see your point, I just don't feel as though supplies are the kind of thing that needs to change. Upkeeps will also cause people to turret more (in WC3 whenever I filled my food cap I'd just turret the shit outta my base or theirs to avoid sitting on money).
In FO, expansions are an absolute necessity for anything bigger than a 1 v 1. Even in a 1 v 1 the person who keeps the expansion usually wins.
In WC3 the expansion is indeed a major boost and can let you continue to gain resources at a decent rate even if you're in high upkeep:
2 mines (high upkeep) = 2 mines x 4 gold per second = 8 g/ps
Vs. 1 mine at 10, 7, and 4 g/ps at low, medium, and high upkeep.
Warcraft also sees little harassment or splitting of forces like we see in FO. The maps are usually larger in FO and because everything is ranged there is a much high degree of harassment and "raids" than warcraft. Warcraft tends to be centered around decisive "Total Engagements" with little skirmishing and almost no raiding.
So.. back to upkeep, I feel that even if your opponent is fielding far too many ships for you to handle, you can still split up your ships and distinctly avoid a decisive engagement until you either:
A. Have what you need to counter a large fleet.
B. Have done your best to cripple your opponent's economy by using fast raiders to destroy mining.
If your opponent is keeping their ships in a "Victory Fleet", then you are given almost free reign to run amok amongst their economy. If that Victory fleet decides to move in your base, you're in deep trouble but they will still have to handle your Starbase and hopefully any defences you've gathered.
Supply buying for Borg and Dominion is really not a better or worse way of getting supplies, it's just different. If you ask me, Borg shouldn't HAVE to worry about supplies to much once they've made the major move into making 6+ incubators. They have 2 per-second resources they have to worry about that create a nice cap for them anyway.
Dominion have HUGE supply costs on EVERYTHING and MUST continue to harvest resources or they will end up spending ridiculous sums on purchasing.
I do see your point, I just don't feel as though supplies are the kind of thing that needs to change. Upkeeps will also cause people to turret more (in WC3 whenever I filled my food cap I'd just turret the shit outta my base or theirs
to avoid sitting on money).
posted on April 7th, 2010, 8:08 am
posted on April 7th, 2010, 11:56 am
Crap, i do agree wit you on too many points ... thats not good for a heated debate.
I especially have to agree, that i don't want to see an upkeep system in FO, as it would be a bold copy and take away FO style. I especially dislike the idea that having more shps should make miners work slowlier. Upkeep costs for turrets (like in Anno 1701) would solve the turtling-issue. And yeah, supply production is unhandy for that issue.
On the other hand a "payment" for "officers" would be a fun idea.
Well, this is still upkeep, so forget about it.
The problem is that in most cases, if you have fewer ships, and the enemy knows that, and you start harassing the expansions and the enemy will know, that your main base is not much defended, move the victory-fleet in and cause irreparable devastation. (A replay i watched yesterday showed how little can be made about an advance of 2 spheres (The rest of both fleets was quite even). Even if the forces striked at the enemys economy that base was simply lost.) The starbase didn't make much of a difference, as it's range is too short and it's power beyond the necessary to repell any tier 2 ships.
Fleet splitting and distraction tactics work against players who let themselves distract. An eye for an eye tactics are much more effective than hunting down the intruders in most cases. (depending of how much can be lost). If a weakened palyer harasses on my base i go for his with my victory-fleet and will surly destroy mre stations than he does. If we both totally kill our bases, i will win the fleet engagement, if he returns, i will be the one, who recovers faster and win then.
Boggz wrote:I do see your point, I just don't feel as though supplies are the kind of thing that needs to change. Upkeeps will also cause people to turret more.
I especially have to agree, that i don't want to see an upkeep system in FO, as it would be a bold copy and take away FO style. I especially dislike the idea that having more shps should make miners work slowlier. Upkeep costs for turrets (like in Anno 1701) would solve the turtling-issue. And yeah, supply production is unhandy for that issue.
On the other hand a "payment" for "officers" would be a fun idea.
Well, this is still upkeep, so forget about it.Boggz wrote:Warcraft also sees little harassment or splitting of forces like we see in FO. The maps are usually larger in FO and because everything is ranged there is a much high degree of harassment and "raids" than warcraft. Warcraft tends to be centered around decisive "Total Engagements" with little skirmishing and almost no raiding.
So.. back to upkeep, I feel that even if your opponent is fielding far too many ships for you to handle, you can still split up your ships and distinctly avoid a decisive engagement until you either:
A. Have what you need to counter a large fleet.
B. Have done your best to cripple your opponent's economy by using fast raiders to destroy mining.
If your opponent is keeping their ships in a "Victory Fleet", then you are given almost free reign to run amok amongst their economy. If that Victory fleet decides to move in your base, you're in deep trouble but they will still have to handle your Starbase and hopefully any defences you've gathered.
The problem is that in most cases, if you have fewer ships, and the enemy knows that, and you start harassing the expansions and the enemy will know, that your main base is not much defended, move the victory-fleet in and cause irreparable devastation. (A replay i watched yesterday showed how little can be made about an advance of 2 spheres (The rest of both fleets was quite even). Even if the forces striked at the enemys economy that base was simply lost.) The starbase didn't make much of a difference, as it's range is too short and it's power beyond the necessary to repell any tier 2 ships.
Fleet splitting and distraction tactics work against players who let themselves distract. An eye for an eye tactics are much more effective than hunting down the intruders in most cases. (depending of how much can be lost). If a weakened palyer harasses on my base i go for his with my victory-fleet and will surly destroy mre stations than he does. If we both totally kill our bases, i will win the fleet engagement, if he returns, i will be the one, who recovers faster and win then.
posted on April 7th, 2010, 4:08 pm
Yeah you're talking about the Drrr (Romulan) vs. Stardust (Borg) match on Duel. That was a pretty cool match to watch but keep in mind that 2 Spheres are a game winning fleet in a 1 v 1 ESPECIALLY against a Romulan opponent 
. Romulans just don't really have the mid-game torpedo firepower needed to stop Spheres right now. But you're right in the sense that once those two Sphere (victory fleet) enter your base, you're in deep trouble. But someone's gotta win, right?
There is another replay on it's way up to YouTube right now of Drrr and myself vs Star and Xerjel. AWESOME game that took us forever as we were both Klingon/Romulan teams. There is tons of harassing nad base-raiding and you'll see that yes, eventually the bases were totalled by victory fleets, but really it was time for a decisive ending.
. Romulans just don't really have the mid-game torpedo firepower needed to stop Spheres right now. But you're right in the sense that once those two Sphere (victory fleet) enter your base, you're in deep trouble. But someone's gotta win, right?There is another replay on it's way up to YouTube right now of Drrr and myself vs Star and Xerjel. AWESOME game that took us forever as we were both Klingon/Romulan teams. There is tons of harassing nad base-raiding and you'll see that yes, eventually the bases were totalled by victory fleets, but really it was time for a decisive ending.
posted on April 8th, 2010, 9:44 pm
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