Prometheus/MVAM

[Tyler]

posted on January 16th, 2011, 1:27 pm

Last edited by Tyler on January 16th, 2011, 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If that was about my post, I never said having 3 cores was less efficient; using them together was, because you burn through the fuel 3x as fast.

a good theory, but like my previous thing, it doesnt work in canon nor fleetops. in fleet battles we never see ships doing that. also shields arent always shown to have multiple strenghts like that most of the time. its usually 1 shield 1 strength, like in fleetops. rarely in canon do we have a distinction between shields.

Ships have multiple facings, each with their own strength. Nemesis showed it, and every series after TNG mentioned individual facings down to different levels often (aft seemed a rather popular choice of target). Not seeing them use different facings is because we rarely see real battle, only brief skirmishes where they sit entirely still, and in battles we're mostly inside the Defiants bridge rather than the battle.

Armada 2 is where there's one facing, not canon.

each strip/turret can only take so much power, but there are multiple strips, as each ship has strips. so fire from multiple strips, it gives the same amount of phaser power as when they are separate. when together only 1 bridge is powered, presumably there are 2 other bridges that need power to their complex computer systems. also there may be separate life support systems, separate hull integrity etc. i just dont see the advantage of mvam when working within the boundaries of canon. even in real life, why build something that splits up and needs intricate and complex separation systems and special training, its probably cheaper to build 3 separate ships which travel in a trio.

All systems active when combined or seperated (with few exceptions) would be very similar, and the cores that could single-handedly control the entire ship now has only a third of the workload. The one core was capable of dealing with all parts at once (including the life support, they don't leave that inactive when docked), so another similar or identical core should have no trouble with less to strech their power over.

Firing from top strips on 1 ship doesn't cause as much damage as firing from the identical top strips of 3 ships.

The bridge doesn't have a complex computer, the Computer core does. The Bridge only has the interface used to control it, rather minor requirement. Assuming an entirely automated attack pattern even needs a bridge (which canon has shown it doesn't), a back-up 'battle bridge' would be all it needs.

Starships are all very complex, Prometheus is no different to the rest of the fleet there. They can get all 3 in a yard at once, all travel together and using only 1 core will allow all 3 to travel while using only a third of the fuel supply. Of course, there's alway the 'massive escape pod' option.

The cost of all as idivuiduals would be pretty much identical to the combined ship; same mass, size, ect.

[Anonymous]

posted on January 16th, 2011, 1:28 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 16th, 2011, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Why should 3 bridges with 3 warp cores be less efficient than 1 bridge with one warp core.

connected: 3 warp cores powering 1 bridge, 1 bridge controls the whole ship as we see with most ships. 1 set of consoles.
separated: 3 lots of: 1 warp core powering 1 bridge. so we have the same amount of power generated, but 3 times as much being used. and thats just on bridges.

And the other modules not neccessarily do have to use their own bridge...

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EDIT:

Ships have multiple facings, each with their own strength. Nemesis showed it, and every series after TNG mentioned individual facings down to different levels often (aft seemed a rather popular choice of target). Not seeing them use different facings is because we rarely see real battle, only brief skirmishes where they sit entirely still, and in battles we're mostly inside the Defiants bridge rather than the battle.

Armada 2 is where there's one facing, not canon.

i disagree facutally on this, i have watched every episode of every series and every movie (with the exception of a few tos eps). and nearly all the time its 1 shield integrity, listen to the dialogue, 9 out of 10 times its 1 shield integrity, 1 shield. the different shield facings with different strengths is rarer and appears a lot less. i think the idea of shield facings is silly personally. the concept we see more in canon is the 1 integrity.

All systems active when combined or seperated (with few exceptions) would be very similar, and the cores that could single-handedly control the entire ship now has only a third of the workload. The one core was capable of dealing with all parts at once (including the life support, they don't leave that inactive when docked), so another similar or identical core should have no trouble with less to strech their power over.

who said one of the three cores could power the whole ship? nobody did, each core is probably smaller than a core designed for a ship that size. so all 3 work together to power the ship. otherwise when connected 2 cores would be sitting idle, which is a waste for no improved combat.

and you have no evidence about the systems power usage. all we know is that instead of 1 system doing stuff (in a normal ship) we need to power 3 separate systems. 3 separate life support systems, 3 separate computer cores, 3 separate everythings.

Firing from top strips on 1 ship doesn't cause as much damage as firing from the identical top strips of 3 ships.

i never mentioned top strips, each section has forward phasers, if they designed it with any semblance of intelligence then these would still be available when connected and could all be fired forward. that negates any loss of dps from not being able to pump 3 cores worth of energy through 1 gun. it would be the same dps connected or separated. maybe less separated since power has to be used for 2 new life support systems 2 new blah blah blahs....

The bridge doesn't have a complex computer, the Computer core does. The Bridge only has the interface used to control it, rather minor requirement.

the main computer is much more advanced, but the bridge consoles are definitely not minor, they are designed to control the whole ship, they are advanced in their own right. an entire control centre for a ship. that tends to draw a lot of power.

Starships are all very complex, Prometheus is no different to the rest of the fleet there. They can get all 3 in a yard at once, all travel together and using only 1 core will allow all 3 to travel while using only a third of the fuel supply. Of course, there's alway the 'massive escape pod'option.

actually the prometheus was said to be more advanced with newer systems etc. and i refer back to the fact that the integrated prommie probably requires all 3 power cores working together to power it. it obviously spends most of its time together, so building 3 warp cores to only use 1 would be very stupid and a waste of resources. warp cores themselves are extremely complex and hard to make. the saving in fuel doesnt exist either. lets assume fuel used and energy generated are directly proportional, the power consumption of the prommie integrated is fixed, so there is no fuel saving as the same amount of fuel is used. whether you put that fuel in 1 big core or 3 small cores.

The cost of all as idivuiduals would be pretty much identical to the combined ship; same mass, size, ect.

the combined ship would be cheaper as it requires 1 of everything instead of 3. economies of scale

so what flies them? presumably it was intended to use a crew and not be automated. or lots of the fleet would be automated. like automated sabres. what if the top bit with the main bridge gets 'sploded? each piece will need a command centre.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 1:31 pm

Every ship has an inactive battle bridge for that event, and engineering can also fly the ship. MVAM has shown in canon to be capable of functioning without a bridge, since the bridge just has human interfaces and the MVAM is entirely automated.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Every ship has an inactive battle bridge for that event, and engineering can also fly the ship. MVAM has shown in canon to be capable of functioning without a bridge, since the bridge just has human interfaces and the MVAM is entirely automated.

voyager was never mentioned to have a battle bridge, nor was the defiant. only ships that can separate have redundant bridges, presumably because bridges are not easy to make as they require top of the range computer consoles and comfy chairs.

the automated attack on the romulans was silly in the extreme, as if the 3 ships could be auto controlled why ever have crews on any ship? the prommie was designed to have 3 ships controlled by 3 bridges. computers arent tactically minded.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 2:06 pm

A Battle bridge isn't a seperation-specific feature; the Constitution has a back-up bridge and cannot seperate. Voyager and Defiant never had a reason to use one, though the Defiant was probably too small and would use the engineering like Picard tried in TNG.

They have crews because the ship cannot be entirely controlled by the AI nor can it repair itself. The automated attack was a pre-programmed attack pattern, no human needed. The ship would likely have a battle bridge for if they didn't use the MVAM the conventional way, but for the most part, the MVAM's pre-programmed attack patterns don't require a bridge on any section to be used during the attack itself (even the main bridge wasn't used).

It wasn't a 'tactical-minded' attack, the docs told it exactly what to do and it did it.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 2:21 pm

A Battle bridge isn't a seperation-specific feature; the Constitution has a back-up bridge and cannot seperate. .

i challenge the factually accuracy of that, find a canon source for that. in fact the battle bridge has only ever been shown on a separation capable ship and only ever used during separation.

Voyager and Defiant never had a reason to use one,

akshully voyager had a reason in the episode deadlock when the proton bursts damaged the bridge and janeway went to engineering instead of your supposed second bridge.

They have crews because the ship cannot be entirely controlled by the AI nor can it repair itself. The automated attack was a pre-programmed attack pattern, no human needed. The ship would likely have a battle bridge for if they didn't use the MVAM the conventional way, but for the most part, the MVAM's pre-programmed attack patterns don't require a bridge on any section to be used during the attack itself (even the main bridge wasn't used).

It wasn't a 'tactical-minded' attack, the docs told it exactly what to do and it did it.

they did the simplest attack in the book, alpha. the computer can handle a simple attack like fly towards them and blow them up. but there are many more advanced manoeuvres which computers probably cant do. it cant anticipate advanced tactics either. having a separating ship be compeletely automated in battle would be impossible. it happened in this case cos they didnt know how to fly it and just used the computer to do the fighting. im sure a crew would direct the ship themselves with consoles.

[Tyler]

posted on January 16th, 2011, 2:31 pm

Last edited by Tyler on January 16th, 2011, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i challenge the factually accuracy of that, find a canon source for that. in fact the battle bridge has only ever been shown on a separation capable ship and only ever used during separation.

Meet the Auxiliary Control Center, the more basic Constitution & Defiant counterpart of the Galaxy battle bridge. Same place, different name.

akshully voyager had a reason in the episode deadlock when the proton bursts damaged the bridge and janeway went to engineering instead of your supposed second bridge.

Could quite easily of been also damaged, though Janeway and her crew aren't exactly known for being the brightest in the fleet... Of course, Picard also went to Engineering instead of the Battle bridge when Data took the main one over. So going to engineering instead doesn't really show much concrete.

they did the simplest attack in the book, alpha. the computer can handle a simple attack like fly towards them and blow them up. but there are many more advanced manoeuvres which computers probably cant do. it cant anticipate advanced tactics either. having a separating ship be compeletely automated in battle would be impossible. it happened in this case cos they didnt know how to fly it and just used the computer to do the fighting. im sure a crew would direct the ship themselves with consoles.

Which is why I mentioned they probably do have a battle bridge, for if they wanted to do more 'unconventional' things. Doesn't change the fact that it is quite capable of attacking without a crew or any bridge if someone gives it a command. Alpha wasn't implied to be the easiest, just all they could think of (they're doctors, not tacticians).

posted on January 16th, 2011, 2:40 pm

Meet the Auxiliary Control Center, the more basic Constitution & Defiant counterpart of the Galaxy battle bridge. Same place, different name.

even that article admits that its not as good as a battle bridge. the ship can be controlled from engineering too. still not a bridge, just a room with consoles, there are probably several of them, where the ship can be controlled from if necessary.

Could quite easily of been also damaged, though Janeway and her crew aren't exactly known for being the brightest in the fleet... Of course, Picard also went to Engineering instead of the Battle bridge when Data took the main one over. So going to engineering instead doesn't really show much concrete.

also been damaged? thats grasping for straws maybe the battle bridge is only really useful for taking control of the stardrive and isnt really great for controlling the whole ship.

Which is why I mentioned they probably do have a battle bridge, for if they wanted to do more 'unconventional' things. Doesn't change the fact that it is quite capable of attacking without a crew or any bridge if someone gives it a command. Alpha wasn't implied to be the easiest, just all they could think of (they're doctors, not tacticians).

its capable of rudimentary attacks, but so is optec's mobile phone. any serious combat requires crew, they would never rely on automated fighting they would have 2 other bridges to control each section.

face it the prommie was a silly ship in a silly show that just looked good. i like the way mvam looked but in a war id spend my money better.

[Tyler]

posted on January 16th, 2011, 2:57 pm

Last edited by Tyler on January 16th, 2011, 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

even that article admits that its not as good as a battle bridge. the ship can be controlled from engineering too. still not a bridge, just a room with consoles, there are probably several of them, where the ship can be controlled from if necessary.

Not as good, but does the same role in the same situations. The bridge is also just a 'room with consoles', it's only a bit bigger.

Seems a bit more of a liability, though. The battle bridge seems harder to get access to, since it was rarely seen.

also been damaged? thats grasping for straws maybe the battle bridge is only really useful for taking control of the stardrive and isnt really great for controlling the whole ship.

I prefer the 'Voyager crew are idiots and forgot it' version. A crew with an engineer that can't identify shit with a tricorder would probably forget a small, obscure room.

its capable of rudimentary attacks, but so is optec's mobile phone. any serious combat requires crew, they would never rely on automated fighting they would have 2 other bridges to control each section.

face it the prommie was a silly ship in a silly show that just looked good. i like the way mvam looked but in a war id spend my money better.

It does basic attacks automated, which is an automated attack. We don't know how advanced the tactics it can handle are since we never saw it used by people who knew anything about it, it's only creativity and improvision it would have a problem with. It would have the same downside as the Borg have in battle. If only Soong was working on the attack patterns...

The ship wasn't silly, no ship worthy of 2 whole registries could be silly. Prometheus was probably not a ship that was intended for full production with or without MVAM, and I'd prefer one of them over 3 Sabres. Probably cost less and has greater power. This part's more personal preference, though.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 3:37 pm

i dont think mvam should increase the offensive power of the prommie. less power might be available as each ship now has to power its own life support and other things that used to be shared. and all for what? when attached they could just use all that power to fire multiple phaser blasts from the integrated ship anyway.

well it does not have to make perfect sense. all you need to know is that in star trek MVAM works ......thats it ....thats all there is to it......there is no argument for why it does not work ......because its a TV show not real life and in star trek if they say the prometheus is a long range deep space experimental ship with this MVAM bla bla bla bla ...then thats how it is.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 3:46 pm

in the end all i would like to see is a fleet ops balanced Prometheus with a fleet ops Balanced MVAM

posted on January 16th, 2011, 3:48 pm

Not as good, but does the same role in the same situations. The bridge is also just a 'room with consoles', it's only a bit bigger.

not true, it probably does a worse job. a bridge isnt just any old consoles, they are higher spec. maybe thats why they explode so much lol. they have more buttons and generally look better.

I prefer the 'Voyager crew are idiots and forgot it' version. A crew with an engineer that can't identify shit with a tricorder would probably forget a small, obscure room.

they are idiots, but tuvok has a brain and would think of it.

It does basic attacks automated, which is an automated attack. We don't know how advanced the tactics it can handle are since we never saw it used by people who knew anything about it, it's only creativity and improvision it would have a problem with. It would have the same downside as the Borg have in battle. If only Soong was working on the attack patterns...

it probably couldnt handle very advanced tactics or starfleet would have many ships that are automated.

The ship wasn't silly, no ship worthy of 2 whole registries could be silly. Prometheus was probably not a ship that was intended for full production with or without MVAM, and I'd prefer one of them over 3 Sabres. Probably cost less and has greater power. This part's more personal preference, though.

i personally think it was silly. i'd take the 3 sabres any day. i think the sabres would be cheaper. and stronger. personal preference indeed.

well it does not have to make perfect sense. all you need to know is that in star trek MVAM works ......thats it ....thats all there is to it......there is no argument for why it does not work ......because its a TV show not real life and in star trek if they say the prometheus is a long range deep space experimental ship with this MVAM bla bla bla bla ...then thats how it is.

but this is not canon, this is a fan made game. and the devs have plenty of options to ignore silly parts of canon. unless you want a shuttle that can go to warp 10 and see the whole map at the same time before losing its 1 crew to hyper evolution? doesnt need explaining it happened

in the end all i would like to see is a fleet ops balanced Prometheus with a fleet ops Balanced MVAM

i dont mind a prommie, but i'd prefer it without mvam. explain it as starfleet deciding the experiment failed and mvam was a failure and not to be built again.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 3:55 pm

but this is not canon, this is a fan made game. and the devs have plenty of options to ignore silly parts of canon. unless you want a shuttle that can go to warp 10 and see the whole map at the same time before losing its 1 crew to hyper evolution? doesnt need explaining it happened

in fleet ops all the units are balanced for game play ......all i did was suggest some ways of bringing the Prometheus into the game and keeping its iconic MVAM. 

posted on January 16th, 2011, 4:00 pm

not true, it probably does a worse job. a bridge isnt just any old consoles, they are higher spec. maybe thats why they explode so much lol. they have more buttons and generally look better.

Sounds like you're confusing 'not as good' with 'different role'. They only look better because Picard would surrender more if they didn't, they'd be no better or worse than any other as they're just the user interface.

they are idiots, but tuvok has a brain and would think of it.

You mean the same Tuvok who tries to talk logic to the dreaded Janeway? He already knows that you do not remind the captain of something she forgot or did wrong. She's god on that ship and he knows it even better than Harry.

it probably couldnt handle very advanced tactics or starfleet would have many ships that are automated.

Either that or it was an experimental ship, of the 'experimental' variety. Still needs someone to tell it to shoot, as the Prometheus EMH (and an Akira) found out the hard way. Of course, fully automatic ships risks a repeat of the M-5 tragedy.

i dont mind a prommie, but i'd prefer it without mvam. explain it as starfleet deciding the experiment failed and mvam was a failure and not to be built again.

Why not, they already re-wrote the Galaxy to add non-existing flaws. However, there would be a few with it for times where they need multiple ships and have only the one; like every crisis the ever befall the Federation... Starfleet tends to fix bugs, or the Defiants wouldn't exist.

posted on January 16th, 2011, 4:01 pm

Well, i admit it didnt read the whole wall of text.

But myles the idea for the offensive increase is that when seperated more weapons would become uncovered, and power from the shields and system, would transfer to the weapons, making them more powerful offesnsivly, but less powerfull defensively, however as they are now a small ship, and a small target, cover fire would also come into effect, increasing avoidance for the 3 parts