"Outpost"

[Boggz]

posted on February 10th, 2010, 9:13 pm

Last edited by Boggz on February 10th, 2010, 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So Zebh already made a topic on this idea which can be found here:  Zebh's Topic "First Starbase".


  This is pretty much the same but I'd like to throw my own ideas out there for specific reasons.

IDEA:

I would love to see a smaller version of each faction's starbase buildable to be, quite literally, Outposts.  The main and most important factor is that they can create mining ships.  That's the crucial thing here for me.

REASON:

The ability to change gameplay on larger maps that are more spread out.

-  By this I mean that several gameplay elements have changed since 3.0.7.  Firstly the speed of interceptors and all units in general have gone considerably up.  This is great because it suddenly allows larger maps to be traversed effectively and for ships with great speed to be split up and away from the rest of a fleet to engage in operations of their own.  (Fleet Operations!  ftw! ) 

-  From listening to people posting in the map exchange, in Dom's Guide Forum, and in games online, I am beginning to realize the current limitations and reasons why large maps cause trouble.  Basically it goes like this:

• Long travel times mean that ships sent on an attack can expect to face technology and production that occurred during their trip.  It can affect an outcome far more than it may seem.
• The Long Travel time encourages rapid teching as there is less danger of an immediate and powerful attack coming before you are ready.  This leads to the Vanilla A2 habit of spamming the most powerful Battleships / Cruisers ftw.  We're seeing this in the V-13 / Negh'Var / Excel II / Breen Battleship globs that inevitably occur in team games on large maps.
• Overabundance of resources - Even 2 moon pairs gives any race more than enough resources to keep a steady production of ships going without the real NEED to occupy more moons.  Granted it is inadvisable to stop at just 1 exp, but most game-winning strats can be done easily with 2 pairs.  Thus you can fortify both your main moons and your expansion heavily and expect little danger to either of them.  There is little use for fast-moving interceptors when a single perimeter can gobble up the entire fleet before they can do any damage or turn to retreat.

Bottom line:  Large maps cause the early and early/mid game to be completely skipped in favor of the larger late game units and late game "Victory Fleet" tactics.


Personally I have always attempted to get a more "Trek Feeling" from these various Star Trek RTS games.  I think FleetOps is the best possible vehicle for that and it will take a combination of a map set up in a certain way plus the mechanics of the game mod to allow it and support it.  I would love to see in a larger map:

• A need for continuous scouting.
• A need to separate fleets into smaller groups in order to protect your space effectively.
• More spread-out mining positions that must be defended by either turrets or small groups of ships.

One crucial thing though that would be necessary for this system to work properly would be a smaller, cheaper version of the Starbase that can produce miners and be constructed quickly and relatively cheaply.  One of the biggest problems with expansions now is that interceptors are SO effective at hit and runs that they can truly wipe out the miners and run off with only a few losses from a turret or defending fleet.  Because miners are SO slow and can be spendy, getting them out to take up mining positions again can become almost a crippling liability.  Thus a small Outpost with the ability to make Miners, Scouts, and maybe a specific destroyer (or not) would be an excellent way to project a little authority into your territory without being the enormous cost of a Starbase itself.


I am thinking something along the lines of:

Outpost:

Buildtime: 110  (By contrast a Starbase is 150)
Cost:  1100di / 500tri / xx Sup.
Stats:  0 Off. / xxx Def. (Likely about 1/2 a normal Starbase)
Upgrades:  Offensive Upgrades only (in case you'd like it to defend as well), Maybe a Tachyon Grid upgrade like a sensor station.
Unit Construction:

• Miner
• Scout
• Destroyer(?)

  Race-specific alterations to this are ripe for possibilities!  I still like the idea of the Feds simply have Runabouts spawn automatically (mechanically the same way as fighters) and patrol a large radius to give extended LOS, while Klingon Outposts might come automatically with some practical weapons and the Borg Outpost might have a Holding Beam.   ^-^


Thus we have a fun little Outpost that is hardy but not a ROCK like Starbases, buildable in a relatively decent time, unarmed unless you so choose to upgrade it in a similar manner to a starbase, and capable of functioning like a far-off rally point near mining stations or other useful things.  I think this could be a really cool idea that would, in itself allow larger maps with fewer moons a more practical gameplay as opposed to just turtling and victory fleeting.


I look forward to thoughts!  I'm working on a 2 v 2 map right now that would very effectively make use of this idea.   ^-^

posted on February 10th, 2010, 9:24 pm

Absolutely stunning idea. Veyr well put together post, and I completely adore the idea. Well done Boggz! Got my vote 

posted on February 10th, 2010, 9:44 pm

+1 from me too!

posted on February 10th, 2010, 10:10 pm

Sounds nice Boggz

posted on February 10th, 2010, 10:11 pm

I always support Ideas like this  I love the customizable aspect of this game, and I think it can always use more.  The only problem I see is that the AI might not be able to use it like you want

posted on February 10th, 2010, 10:14 pm

Hmm, that's true what you say about the AI, Zaxxon.

I confess I did not have the AI in mind when I was thinking about it .  I only play online now so that's what I really had in mind.

posted on February 10th, 2010, 10:34 pm

Well, it depends hardly on the map I think. I like the idea, but you may be able to just put on some defense platforms and a small yard in order to do the same. The only thing your outpost is good for, is that it can produce freighters in order to avoid long traveling times from a starbase far beyond...

It depends really on the map. If your moons are in free space, the outpost thing might work. If the moons are surroudet by blocking and asteroid fields, you may not need an outpost there, you would be better off with a tight defense perimeter to the "gate".

But +1 from me for it, because you need it in open space.

posted on February 10th, 2010, 10:40 pm

Perhaps a way of balancing it so that people don't just spam these smaller outposts on small maps is to give them large footprints in one axis (aka long rectangular) - that way you can't blockade thin passages (like Path to Nowhere) or stick a bunch of these supposedly powerful stations up against each other 

posted on February 10th, 2010, 10:54 pm

Perhaps a way of balancing it so that people don't just spam these smaller outposts on small maps is to give them large footprints in one axis (aka long rectangular) - that way you can't blockade thin passages (like Path to Nowhere) or stick a bunch of these supposedly powerful stations up against each other 

  Yeah I like that footprint idea. 

  I also thought that by not starting with weapons the Outpost might not be considered something to "spam".  It's main use would be to act as a bit more of a focal point due to it's strength of shields.  Weapon Upgrades wouldn't be cheap and thus spamming then would be a tremendously poor idea.

  At least that's the intention .  I think that if someone wanted to turtle they would be best off building turrets.  This is mainly my idea to expand the range of mining ship-building so that larger maps with exp's farther away are both more practical and less frustrating .

[RedEyedRaven]

posted on February 10th, 2010, 11:04 pm

Last edited by RedEyedRaven on February 10th, 2010, 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I also had the idea of adding a special weapon to the game that uses special energy per second to fly at in-system-warp speed. For bigger maps, a very limited amount of those "deep space" - combat vessels could be something very useful.

More concrete, every race should get a limited (by 2 - 4 ships dependable on which type it is) deep-space combat ship.
The federation could get the Prometheus (four nacelles would make an argument for that) and it could be limited by only one ship because of the battleship status. Special energy amount could start with 400 and the "interception-warp" uses 75-100 SE per second to make sure it's no "I can get everywhere within one jump" thing. Also the system should get a cooldown-time of half the length a non-veteran Descent uses for the shield reset.


What do you guys think of an idea like that?

Except for me going a little off-topic. 

posted on February 10th, 2010, 11:06 pm

I like this idea.

posted on February 10th, 2010, 11:11 pm

I also had the idea of adding a special weapon to the game that uses special energy per second to fly at in-system-warp speed. For bigger maps, a very limited amount of those "deep space" - combat vessels could be something very useful.

More concrete, every race should get a limited (by 2 - 4 ships dependable on which type it is) deep-space combat ship.
The federation could get the Prometheus (four nacelles would make an argument for that) and it could be limited by only one ship because of the battleship status. Special energy amount could start with 400 and the "interception-warp" uses 75-100 SE per second to make sure it's no "I can get everywhere within one jump" thing. Also the system should get a cooldown-time of half the length a non-veteran Descent uses for the shield reset.


What do you guys think of an idea like that?

Except for me going a little off-topic. 

I think this should have it's own topic .

posted on February 10th, 2010, 11:18 pm

I like the idea, Boggz!  And I think the AI would be ok with it, they build fully upgraded starbases at expansions, so I'm sure they could use these outposts.  Granted, if I were the AI, I'd stick with a fully upgraded starbase, but I'm just saying it could be done.

posted on February 10th, 2010, 11:19 pm

I like the idea, Boggz!  And I think the AI would be ok with it, they build fully upgraded starbases at expansions, so I'm sure they could use these outposts.  Granted, if I were the AI, I'd stick with a fully upgraded starbase, but I'm just saying it could be done.

 
  Might be better for people playing against the AI to have to fight some of these upgraded with weapons instead of having to plow through Starbase after Starbase fully upgraded.

posted on February 10th, 2010, 11:21 pm

I think this should have it's own topic .

You're right. I'll correct it a little..^^