More Toggle Weapons?

posted on September 7th, 2010, 9:24 am

Even though it might be detrimental to the "uniqueness" of certain units:
Why not giving specials that disable certain weapons on a vessel for a statincrease as long as it is toggled, thus making ships more versatile (and thus a better counter depending on the situation)
e. g.: When fielding the B8, the torpedoe is useless against those units, where the B8 excels against, Kvorts Brels ... almost any klingon Field Yard-vessel. It would be nice to disable the torpedolauncher for an increase in hull prepare or ... something. The crew/power is "reassigned" to something else.
What do you think?

[loki_999]

posted on September 7th, 2010, 11:50 am

Last edited by loki_999 on September 7th, 2010, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

You suggest if you stop using the torpedo on the B8 it should increase something?  Hmmm... how does not using a torpedo free up anything for something else? 

Some ships have toggle weapons that do similar, although they usually just reduce fire rate/engine speed/etc in return for the bonus.

Countering in FO is achieved by building the right ships to counter your opponent.  This requires good scouting and planning.  If you can at the click of a button change the ship to work better against others (and then assuming they can do the same) means scouting becomes less important and planning irrelevant... just build ships and change their focus on the fly.

You said it yourself the best: it could lead to ships loosing some of their uniqueness.

The ability to shift power between different subsystems has already been proposed i think and this would make things more like trek-like.  It exists to a certain extent on ships like the Sabre with its special. To implement this for all ships though would be quite a large amount of work.  Certainly a timer would have to be applied before the change takes effect to stop it being abused.  I mean, all power to engines getting to place, reroute all power from engines to weapons and shields while attacking, and then back to engines to get the hell out of dodge if things go bad.  Cloakers could abuse this even more.

Then if this exists, it adds a whole new level of micro-management on the part of players, and there is enough of that to handle as things are.  It would widen the gap between new and experienced players, and make the game more of a click-fest, something i personally really wouldn't like to see FO become.  Want a click-fest, go play Starcraft where you can twitch like a madman on amphetamines.

And why is it over the last couple of days people keep coming up with suggestions to boost the Dominion or using the Dominion as examples.... i mean, they B8 in your post.  The Dominion are an awesome race and don't need any more advantages.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 12:30 pm

"You suggest if you stop using the torpedo on the B8 it should increase something?  Hmmm... how does not using a torpedo free up anything for something else? "
You don't have to power the torpedo launcher and/or replicate torpedos. I didn't suggest a deathray instead, just a temporary, mall increase of system value. But if it's marginal it is close to redundant so scrap that idea anyway.

"Countering in FO is achieved by building the right ships to counter your opponent. [...} ... just build ships and change their focus on the fly"
I didn't suggest universal weaponry or on-the-fly-refits. But in the case of B8 vs. Kvorts/Brels your torpedo is close to useless, most of the damage is done by the pulses anyway. Scouting tells you, what type of ships your enemy is building yes, so you know that your counter to that ship has a weaponsystem that is a stone to the scissor that you are going to face (even though it is the best counter to that ship, regarding its passives and other weapons.)

"it could lead to ships loosing some of their uniqueness"
Yes, but it may add up to the uniqueness of a particular/future race. My intention wasn't to give it to every ship of every race.

"and there is enough of that to handle as things are."
Yes, point taken.

"Want a click-fest, go play Starcraft where you can twitch like a madman on amphetamines."
Toggle-able Weapons actually reduce the amounts of clicks you have to use. Assess the situation, click the specialweaponbutton that says "fire torpedos only", and thats it.
And I usually play on slow speed or preferably turn-based tactics. Thanks for the insult, though.

"And why is it over the last couple of days people keep coming up with suggestions to boost the Dominion or using the Dominion as examples"
Search the forum. There are as much dominion threads as threads for other races and apart from "Breen"-stuff maybe even less. I have still a threadtitle in mind "dominion needs some lovin'" or so.

"The Dominion are an awesome race and don't need any more advantages."
I agree on that, too. I don't care whether given to the dominion, the feds, the romulans or the noxter. It was just to illustrate the point. Dominion is awesome and my favorite race that's why I came up with the B8 example. Because I know them better than any other race . Maybe because the only Dominion ships that use pulses also use torpedos ... I don't know. Any other race (apart from Klingon) use beam in conjunction with torpedos, not pulse.

[loki_999]

posted on September 7th, 2010, 12:45 pm

Last edited by loki_999 on September 7th, 2010, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The quote function is your friend. 

I didn't suggest universal weaponry or on-the-fly-refits. But in the case of B8 vs. Kvorts/Brels your torpedo is close to useless, most of the damage is done by the pulses anyway.

Erm, then don't use B8's against Kvorts/B'rels then.    The B'rel is a direct counter for the B8.

Yes, but it may add up to the uniqueness of a particular/future race. My intention wasn't to give it to every ship of every race.

Ah, in that case this topic is about the Dominion being underpowered then?  Joking aside, these weapons do exist, so, i presume you just want more of them....?

Toggle-able Weapons actually reduce the amounts of clicks you have to use. Assess the situation, click the specialweaponbutton that says "fire torpedos only", and thats it.

Sounds ok, although you do need to remember to untoggle it afterwards.

Thanks for the insult, though.

Shucks, no need to thank me.    Seriously, sorry, no insult was intended, it was meant to be a generic comment (i'm a bit of a Starcraft hater) not a personal attack. I've included more smileys in this post to convey the humour intended.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 12:51 pm

Well, it could be used for like alternative modes. Switch Beams to pulses and vice versa. Range and stats would increase or decrease depending on what is changed (Example: Pulse mode gets higher Offense, but shorter range than Beam mode)

posted on September 7th, 2010, 12:57 pm

Erm, then don't use B8's against Kvorts/B'rels then.    The B'rel is a direct counter for the B8.

actually brels dont do so good vs b8.

b8 has lots of pulses to shred brel.

plus if the b8 decides it actually wants to use its transporters on full auto then the b8s will capture brels quickly. or at least reduce their crew making them weaker. also remember that the b8 is medium sized, so pulses do 20% less against it, and taqs torps miss 20% of the time. so brels passives dont really help it win.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 2:59 pm

Then the guide should be changed to show that the B'rel is not a hard counter.  Didn't quite believe it myself when i read it.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:02 pm

Then the guide should be changed to show that the B'rel is not a hard counter.  Didn't quite believe it myself when i read it.

It depends on how you use them - that's the problem with restricted arc vessels. If B8's are being retreated, or are used in combat against other units, the B'rels will prove their use. If B'rels are the only units there, they'll get hit hard and captured. The counter tables are as cut and dry as they can in most instances, but because there are always nuances, it can be difficult to explain everything in a single word (i.e. the name of the vessel). Technically K'Vort counter K'beajQ for instance - however, K'beajQ should in fact be built to counter K'Vort because you'll use them to kite the K'Vort. 

posted on September 8th, 2010, 4:07 pm

Erm, then don't use B8's against Kvorts/B'rels then.    The B'rel is a direct counter for the B8.

B8 slaughter any fieldyard-ship as do T15. Pulses and Passives make them shine But for the early game, that's about it.

Ah, in that case this topic is about the Dominion being underpowered then?  Joking aside, these weapons do exist, so, i presume you just want more of them....?

It is not underpowered and yes, that was my intention

Shucks, no need to thank me.    Seriously, sorry, no insult was intended, it was meant to be a generic comment (i'm a bit of a Starcraft hater) not a personal attack. I've included more smileys in this post to convey the humour intended.

I only enjoy SC when dividing control over the units and then play cooperatively. I was positively surprised that this is also part of FO (-> Armadaselection). Is it used in onlinegames?

Well, it could be used for like alternative modes. Switch Beams to pulses and vice versa. Range and stats would increase or decrease depending on what is changed (Example: Pulse mode gets higher Offense, but shorter range than Beam mode)

That wasn't my proposition. Its just, disable a weapon-type toggle style and increase systemvalue by a small amount. Your proposal would actually lead to less diversity between ships as Loki feared.

If B8's are being retreated, or are used in combat against other units, the B'rels will prove their use. If B'rels are the only units there, they'll get hit hard and captured.

I learned that the hard way yesterday.

posted on September 8th, 2010, 4:53 pm

I only enjoy SC when dividing control over the units and then play cooperatively. I was positively surprised that this is also part of FO (-> Armadaselection). Is it used in onlinegames?

I've not seen it happen.  Could be useful for playing with new people showing them how to improve their game.  The experienced person takes control of building and the newbie gets to try just the combat, and then vice versa.

EDIT: Actually, could be really evil if two experienced players took control of the same armada.  Double your reaction times especially if you coordinate well with your fellow player.

posted on September 8th, 2010, 4:58 pm

armada play is good if u are tired or drunk lol

experienced players usually dont armada up as its boring. and without teamspeak coordinating is bloody hard.

posted on September 8th, 2010, 5:01 pm

I already converted my girlfriend to the gamerside by using the coop-mode of Anno1404. It really slows things for newbies (or slow-paced people like myself) ... and talking/coordinating a shared armade might contribute to online teamplay, who knows?

The evilmode would most certainly cause serious heart attacks But it equals also more micromanagement, which endorses less spam. On yesterdays game, I could have really used a hand to rebuild my raided expansions. Is on the right proposition?

@Myles: But what if on a large Map?

posted on September 8th, 2010, 5:08 pm

even on a large map experienced players usually dont armada together, unless one is tired or drunk or just wants an easy game where they are mostly advising rather than playing.