Mixed-Tech

posted on November 14th, 2011, 5:43 am

Thought I'd offer some suggestions on this matter. I don't think that I have much in the past... probably because it's not all that big in my gameplay to go after the constructors like it used to be. But here goes:

First, what happens with the constructor you capture. The constructor you capture can't actually build anything, you have to take it back to a star base and have it go through a yard, or star base to transmit the data directly. Once the process is complete, the constructor is more or less useless.

From here, your star base is given two choices for constructors (once the captured constructor has been safely brought back and look over), one is the regular Klingon (I'm going to use Klingon as playable race, with Federation captured constructor as example) constructor, the other new option is a Klingon constructor with Federation updates. Races would update their current constructors with the new information, they wouldn't rely on and man an alien vessel.

The new Klingon-Federation constructor has the following build options:

Research Station (regardless of faction, there would be one research station choice) (new mixed-tech station models)
Yards Field, battle, imperial (all factions have same yard choices as original constructor)

The constructor can not build Starbases, Refineries, turrets, or sensor relays etc.

The research station allows you general research gained from the race in question. So, Feds for example can update their sensor technology, whereas Klingons can not. So you get the regular research available to the federation, but only X1, not 2 upgrades. There would be additional upgrades for weapons, shields, and sensors. Dominion would offer weapons, shields, life support, and engines. These upgrades only affect the ships that are built from yards built by the mixed-tech constructor.

All the same yards are build able, and more or less all of the ship designs are now build able as well, so long as you have proper research done on your own factions side. Since the constructor is now mixed tech, there could be inherent differences in some of the designs, i.e. some are a bit better offensively, defensively, engines, etc. But all would benefit from the upgrades researched at the mixed tech research station. None of your original ships would though.

The captured constructor doesn't matter. If it is destroyed, you still have options to build your own mixed tech ship from your star base. You would never have to capture multiple ships. It wouldn't do you any good, unless you wanted it on your trophy wall... might look pretty there. Once you've got the ship, you've brought it back to be analyzed, it's done. The analyze constructor would replace the current research presently done from the built mixed tech yard.

So you would still have edjien, which would be put maybe into the battle yard. But all these yards could now come with an updated version of all ship classes with certain tweaks, but they would get real benefit from research now too. These mixed-tech ships would still get benefits from all your classic upgrades, but would get a third potential upgrade giving them upwards of 30% extra weapons strength.

Or, there could be one research station, and one yard station. And a selection of all ships or some ships are included in the new yard. In order to select the more advanced ships, you have to be at that tech level in the normal set up with all the stations etc.

Now, beyond this, you would have a lot of information in the captured constructor... So other things could be put into the research station. Ie, critical shot maybe. That would be something the Klingons would like to get their hands on. Stuff with sensor dishes... not so much. But there would be increased potential for what to do if you had a mixed-tech research station as well. Defensive options, and upgrade offensive options.

k, well those are the basics.

[godsvoice]

posted on November 14th, 2011, 5:59 am

Last edited by godsvoice on November 14th, 2011, 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ok, I got another idea depending on how this goes.

Let's say the idea where you get upgraded specials to work between races through the research station... thats the assumption.

Critical shot is researched at the mixed tech station for whatever costs, but you don't get it assigned to a specific ship like it would be to the defiant.

Instead, specials are allocated according to ship size or class. Therefore, as the special was designed for a battleship, only Klingon battleships would be able to get it.

From here, once critical shot has be researched, you also have to do research to give it to a specific ship. So, a number of options come up allowing you to give critical shot to either vutpa, neghvar, or luspet.

Conversely, let's say it was the monsoon's special for destroyers. Easy enough to do work on switching up photon configurations. The torpedo is researched, and then research can be done to individually assign the special to Kvorts, kbeajq etc. Either the class has to match, or maybe the size, weapons ranges etc. flexible to suggestions here.

only some specials would be researchable i.e., it has to match both races, and that would be left up to devs. any photon upgrade I imagine Klingons would like. but they wouldn't get progressive scan for their scout. some good judgment would be involved here. conversely, the federation might not look into the neghvars ion torpedo.

posted on November 15th, 2011, 12:21 am

Sounds pretty interesting all in all. So let me see if I get what you're saying:

The captured constructor goes back to your yard/starbase for analysis. The starbase can then build a mixed-tech constructor that can build upgraded yards and/or research stations, which can get some of the abilities and upgrades from the race you captured it from.
Two questions:
1. Would unique ships be available that you wouldn't be able to get otherwise? Miranda II, Dominion Dreadnaught, etc.
2. Will the buildable yards upgrade all ships, or just some?  Will all the modified vessels be buildable at each yard, and have a different build for each race?
If so, I may have a better alternative. You would have your three 'mixed-tech' yards, which are the same as your other ones except that to unlock the ships you would have to have the required race. This would save time by not adding the extra hundreds of files for each ship being different based on race, and you wouldn't have to build ten yards, only two or three mixed-tech ones that work for all of them. Oh yeah, and these yards can have some super-awesome ships you couldn't get otherwise; kind of like the current mixed-tech stuff.

Sounds pretty good though, I think the devs have been trying to figure out a new mixed-tech system for awhile now

posted on November 15th, 2011, 12:39 am

First, I would just respond to your one statement of hundreds of files for each ship... I have no idea what that even means. Although, obviously being here sometime, I am aware of this modding stuff... but personally it is pretty much Dutch to me. So, whatever alterations to make that aspect of it easier would trump whatever I am trying to suggest, if that way makes it easier to implement... but I don't have that in the background of my thoughts, so I leave that to the devs to consider.

Yes, as I was saying with the Edjien, the new ship for Klingons with Fed tech, all those new ships would be available. And yes, if I am reading the ladder part of your post right, it would be much easier to make all mixed-tech ships come from one yard only. No field battle imperial in the mixed tech rendition, only one mixed tech yard that builds all of it (the one's that already exist to begin with). Would just need some new research station models perhaps.

Now personally, I would prefer to see more than three mixed tech ships for each race. I would like the majority of the ships to be build able in mixed tech with some improvements.

The other thing I was thinking, is that if we did restrict which ships were build able (hopefully not), it would reflect the mixed tech constructor captured. For example, capturing a Klingon constructor would focus on your medium destroyers, this is where Klingons excel. Capturing a Romulan constructor would focus on improvements in your large battleships, a Romulan area of expertise. Capturing Federation would give you certain advantages with your cruisers. So, if we went the way of not rebuilding every ship, maybe focus the upgrades to reflect the race you captured.

Yeah.. I've noticed the devs were looking at it for a while, but I hadn't really heard anything substantive about it for a while ,and never commented on it... but I figured I'd give it a shot and see if any ideas I could offer would spark some interest.

Although, a main thing is I do want to have my own buildable mixed tech constructor. And I would like to see a research station come out of it.

But either way, things like the Romulan Federation mixed tech would stay in place. Where feds can build  defiant that cloaks... I mean thats pretty neat, so definitely keep that. Without knowing what the devs have in mind, hard to say where this might fit in. But yeah.

posted on November 16th, 2011, 6:34 am

I've thought of a way to go about the research aspect of it, in relation to choosing what number of mixed-tech vessels gets used.

The research station already offers X1 upgrade for that factions system upgrades.

Now, a bit of background, the traditional mixed-tech offers 3 ships in mixed-tech yard. This would increase that number greatly... to all ships being an option, but perhaps not all can be chosen.

Several additional research options are made available, I haven't quite worked out all the kinks, but their could be many ways of doing this.

As example, let's say you are Klingons, and you just captured Federation construction ship. You can build the research station and yard station simultaneously, however the yard only gives one default ship to be built for all factions. (this ship would be a tweak of its original version) For further ship production beyond that one, you have to do some research to choose how you integrate the captured faction's technology.

In the end, you are selecting a four set combo from your yards. You can go a destroyer route, cruiser route, support ship route, or battleship route. (Or some combination thereof). This in essence asks you, do you want to integrate the federation technology to upgrade your destroyer class vessels, or your battleships? From here, you choose what ships you want, and it offers a revamp for that class set. So let's say you want to select destroyer class. Research is done, and it develops ways to improve your traditional kvort, kbeajq, brel, and susa. For instance. The initial research gives a basic upgrade based on the factions strengths. So being federation, let's say all these ships gain shield strength, or system value and a little offensive maybe or whatever.

So first you select what class or variety of class selection you want (perhaps it is a standard mix, of either 2 destroyer, 1 cruiser, 1 battleship, all 4 destroyer, or 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser, 2 battleship... etc etc lots of choices of how to break this up). After this, once you have selected what class you want, you can do further upgrades. So let's say you go destroyer route, and you want to upgrade your destroyers. You get a standard upgrade. Then three more upgrade options are made available. Each offers a +3 value to either offensive, defensive, or system value for each of these ships. But you can only choose one. So you use the alien factions knowledge to improve your systems.

Ok. so that's one option... lol erg.

Another, is to organize the original selection in a manner other than destroyer, cruiser, battleship etc. It could be organized by weapons range, i.e. you can choose to upgrade all your long range units, short ranged units, and medium ranged unit based on information obtained from the constructor. Or, it could be by speed, or weapons type. So, the ships using pulse or beam weaponry share information. K but that ladder two are not so interesting.

Two of the funner ways I think, would be based on either ship size, or weapons range. Upgrading that way.

Another possible way, is for the faction to choose one of it's yards to get upgrades for the entire ship line. So, as we are in the Klingon scenario. It can select to upgrade it's field yard units, battle yard units, or imperial yard units. Now, this gives a mix. The Battle yard, is a mix of long range, support, cruiser, and battleship features. This goes for all races. Although, there is generally a leaning towards larger or medium ships with most factions obviously.

For Romulans, if you go large yard, its really only large battleships. Federation Antares yard, its all smaller ships, but you would get a variety, of destroyers, support ships, cruisers, and weapons range.

K. um. so yeah let's go with that.

Not to many comments yet... it seems like its been viewed a few times, but either people aren't commenting cause they're not sure, or they want to see what other people think... But I dunno. I think this is one way to really develop that side of the game. I think the devs have already shown interest in changing it in some way, maybe a comment or two from a dev to see if this fits, or what the other plans underway currently are sort of leaning towards.  little sneak peak, couple of insider secrets maybe 

So I am proposing a couple things. 1 make the mix-tech ship that builds stuff come from the starbase. 2 implement a yard and research aspect to it, give it a bit more room for depth of play as such. 3 perhaps widen the choice of ships resulting from capturing an enemy constructor, and maybe give some choice in that regard as well, either through ship size, class, or weapons range. (through research options) 4. adopt upgrades from the factions research system upgrades. i.e. shields, weapons, life support, engines, sensors. 5. well, that's all I'm intentionally suggesting I think, but maybe i said something in there i forgot, or someone else wants to post to add.

posted on November 16th, 2011, 12:06 pm

With regard to the captured constructor wouldn't it be broken down by your scientists to find out how it worked. And therefore it wouldn't be hanging around after analysing it.
So in practice it would dock with a station and decommission (with a progess bar). Once the ship is completely gone (and the bar filled) the research is finshed and then given the option to built a mixed tech constructor (of that race). Maybe you would also get a small resource bonus from the ship that you just took apart.

posted on November 16th, 2011, 5:38 pm

sure that would work too.

posted on November 16th, 2011, 8:40 pm

Wow.. wall of text.

Ideas are good, but perhaps its better to condense the idea. I know i don't want to read 3 screens of text.
Just present the basic concept before unleashing the bombardment.

When ppl have commented on that, expand on your ideas.

[godsvoice]

posted on November 16th, 2011, 9:34 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on November 16th, 2011, 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Condensed idea:

1. Capture a constructor have it analyzed at a station. but the captured constructor can't build anything

2. Mixed tech constructor becomes buildable from your starbase.

3. Mixed tech constructor builds research and yard station.

4. research station can upgrade based on the factions system upgrade, i.e. shields, weapons, engines sensors, etc

5. Yard can build a larger variety of ships. It gets one default ship that is build able with a few improvements, i.e. brel, saber, bug, etc.

6. Additional ships can be built, but first research must be done. You research what kinda of ships you want to upgrade based on the faction you just captured, and how you will integrate it. This provides four additional ships for mixed tech, or whatever number we choose.

A few examples:

1. You can upgrade all destroyers, cruisers, support ships, or battleships.
2. You can upgrade based on range, i.e. all long weapon range ships, short, medium or artillery etc.
3. Based on your races yards, you can choose to upgrade 1 yard, for the entire ship line. This way you get a mix of ships, for the battle yard, you would get some cruisers, support ships, long range, and battleships. But for most races, this would mean large ships (romulan warbird yard) or smaller ships (federation antares yard).

So the research station would take a selection from above that we choose, and use their captured factions strengths to say give all destroyers stronger shields or system value, or offensive etc. From here, after you choose which selection you want, additional research could be done for 1 of the following: give ships +3 in offensive, defensive or system value, etc, based on things learned from the constructor.

7. Research station only upgrades mixed tech ships. Not original ships. So mixed tech ships with full research could get +30 percent shields. oR what have you.
That's fairly condensed.

posted on November 17th, 2011, 12:52 am

To answer your earlier question, each rank of each ship is a file, meaning for each ship class there are really 6 odf files that go with them... this includes the modified mixed-tech vessels too. If you suggested having upgraded versions of every ship by mixed-tech, it would add hundreds to thousands of files. While each odf isnt large individually, over time it would stack up, and might even go so far as to constrict the number of ships placed in the game. I think you're saying one upgraded standard ship per race, not all, so this shouldn't be a problem.

All in all, your ideas sound pretty good, and I for one like seeing alot of diversity in fleets

posted on November 17th, 2011, 1:03 am

The number of ODFs isn't such a concern other than for people wanting to modify the files Don't worry about coding things, worry about ideas 

posted on November 17th, 2011, 3:03 am

Oh, haha, no, not just one standard upgraded ship per race.

You get a mixed tech yard, and there is one ship available to start with a standard upgrade yes. So sabre, brel, bug, rhienn etc. This is automatically available.

However, with the research station I was suggesting, you could get up to four more depending on what you wanted.

So all in all, every ship would become a mixed tech ship more or less, as an option.

But there would be specific options to choose from. So one selection type might give you battleships. Another research selection would give you destroyers. Or a mix, as I suggested. Perhaps we do selection based on weapons range. Hence, you used the captured constructor, to upgrade all your long or short ranged ships.

From here on top of the original ship available, you get an extra four that would be chosen from a diverse selection depending on how we might choose to organize it. Ie, by yard such as all antares ships, or all eraudi ships get upgraded, or by ship size, weapons range etc.

But a lot MORE ships would be made available in the mixed tech options with this suggestion... but you would only get 5. The standard ship with a small bonus in ship stats I imagine, and then upgraded features for around 4 other ships. If you were in early game, maybe you want specialized destroyers, as thats all you can afford. Or it's later in the game, and you want to focus on cruisers. Or long range ships, some long range ships are destroyers, others support, others battleships, so you would get greater variety with weapons range. I would think.

posted on November 18th, 2011, 9:35 pm

I've been looking a bit closer at the mixed tech options currently available.

Why are some ships from mixed tech yards available, when it says right in the description that they aren't really a good buy for either avatar?

I think there is one federation mixed tech yard, where there is one ship that isn't good for either mayson or rinser. Then there is one ship that isn't good for mayson and one ship that is no good for rinser. So from that particular mixed tech yard, depending on who you are, you only get one good ship out of it.

One thing I goess I didn't outline in this suggestion are the differences for each avatar with these ships. But I would think that there should be good options for both, and no ships that are useless for both.

posted on November 20th, 2011, 12:16 am

This is getting creepy guys... out of 12 posts I've written well over half. I sort of get the hint that we don't seem too interested in the idea, but! Come on, this idea is pretty sweet... I don't care, I like it, so with the interest of completeness, I'm going to keep adding to it. Until a dev tells me that it just won't work with what they have in mind.  Just kinda awkward when you're the one who keeps writing in a post, even if it's one you started.

So, to get another idea added. Split mixed tech analysis time down substantially.

The time it takes to analyze/deconstruct the alien constructor and be able to build your own mixed tech construction ship, will be cut down to say roughly 1/4 of the time it currently takes to research mixed-tech. The time it takes to build and deconstruct the mixed tech constructor or captured constructor will be about the same. I would say it should be approximately 90-120 seconds total between the two. From here, it will take time to build the yard, so add another 30-60 seconds. This will provide you with the default ship that is available automatically, i.e. brel saber etc that has a small boost from the alien faction.

So, up time would be, ideally, less then 3 min.

From here, you need to build the research station. Another min or so. From here, you choose which group of four ships you want to build on top of the default ship. I'm thinking you might have somewhere around 4-6 choices. There will be stronger ships, and weaker ships depending on what you choose. Ie. do you go for destroyers, or battleships. So, if you want for destroyers, it would be less expensive and quicker to research. Battleships, more expensive, and longer to build.

But either way, should all be well underway in a healthy amount of time. If you go destroyer mixed tech, maybe it could all happen in say 4 min, if you want to go for heavier late game ships, maybe the current length or 6 min.

If we did something based on weapons range, well, within a faction, strength would be considered based on the total number of units that are long range, short, medium, artillery, strategic, etc etc. And again, a difference balance found.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 3:42 am

Personally, I think you're ideas are pretty cool, and this new mixed-tech system would be pretty awesome
Not quite sure why not many people are giving you feedback at this point, maybe they don't like reading essays? Lack of response doesn't invalidate your ideas, might just mean itd take awhile for them to fully read through your ideas and figure out how they can be improved/included