Make Cho'naq an early-game ship.

posted on March 16th, 2011, 11:52 pm

well, I'm thinking the Neghvar could become more useful by lowering its cost, rather than increasing its power.  It's already a good ship for its price, but it needs something to offset the insane tech climb.  I say an economic advantage is the best way to balance an economic drawback.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 12:10 am

A cost-decrease on the Neggie would be a bad idea because it's already just slightly more expensive than a Vor'cha, which makes perfect sense considering that the Neggie is newer.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 4:02 am

hmm, you have a good point.  Remind me, why don't people use the neggie again?

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on March 17th, 2011, 4:21 am

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on March 17th, 2011, 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Because the Vor'cha does its job so well that you almost never need anything else, and certainly don't need a ship that makes you do research just to cloak it. It's not a matter of cost (was once feasible to even rush Negh'vars since the techup for Martok isn't that bad), people will just build more battle yards or go Bortas if they have extra resources.

About the Negh'var cloak: you also have to research the cloaking for the Cho'naq, and need a separate research to cloak the Bortas. I think that the Negh'var cloak research should be combined with the Bortas one and should be the first Bortas upgrade, and the Cho'naq should just get a cloak without research so that it is more useful.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 4:54 am

Hmmm

I agree that the large-scale cloak needs to be cheaper.  Maybe that's the only change that's really needed?

If you could cloak Cho'naQ and Negh'var, people would use them.  But right now the research for their cloak is about the same as buying both speed upgrades.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 9:19 am

In fact I see NeghVars more often than BortaS. I agree that large scale cloaking devices are too expensive, but the Negh'Var is fine. It is fast, does incredible damage(ever saw a Neggie fighting an Assim? ) and is quite durable. That's not even considering plasma overload or her Veteran abilities which are awesome and very Klingon as well.
Anyway, the problem that you don't see them very often is simply the expensive Imperial yard AND the weapon depot. People rather build two Vor'chas than an Imperial yard with useless ChonaQ. People don't even use Vutpas because they don't want to spend ressources for another research facility.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 10:06 am

hmm, you have a good point.  Remind me, why don't people use the neggie again?

there are several contributing reasons for that.

1 is the same reason u dont see a lot of sovvies, it takes time to get up that high in the tree, and games tend not to last that long. a tech race can leave you vulnerable, even in a team game, although team games are good places to see higher tech levels.

another reason has already been said: you can get away with vorchas for a lot of things, they are stronger than akiras, and dont suffer from issues like the e2. the e2 can finish the game, but is risky on its own, having some support for it helps, and its slow. the vorcha is generalist and does a lot of jobs. it never misses and can take a pounding while cloaking. well microd vorchas are like average microd genspecs, a pain to kill.

i personally think the neggie is fine (50 off ) but usually i have won or lost the game before my vorchas stop working.

comparing with the big D/norexan is risky as i see that more often, possible because its a great warbird. comparing with tavara is also bad as the tavara is super tech. v13s are different as well in that they are easier to tech to.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 12:41 pm

Besides all the problems you mentiones I think it's just the fact that it needs a 3rd yard. A warbird yard may be as expensive as the Imperial yard, but it's the second yard the Romulans have, same goes for large Fed yard and Dominion yard. A third expensive yard that produces only a useless ChonaQ if you don't have weapon depot is not worth its costs. That means: It's not only a third yard it's also a third tech building you need. For their Special weapon it's even a 4th building. With Roms/Feds it's the second yard, 2nd tech building(to choose from all warbirds you need 3tech buildings of course, for basic warbird, which is much more useful than ChonaQ you need only 1tech building though), with Dom just second yard and proto which could fight already.
--> The comparison with Sovereign fits quite well in my opinion.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 1:13 pm

yeah, because chassis 3 is needed for sovvie as well. Most games end before 3. The main difference is that chassis 3 gives u the awesome defiant and phalanx for risner. imp yard gives u the chonaq, which doesnt justify yard costs like vorchas, and the bortas, which is a very specific build. The neggie is left all alone to justify the yard cost, and it doesnt quite do the job, considering that vorchas will have ranked by this time and will be even awesomer. Martok even gets luspets if he feels he needs to climb higher on the tech tree. And taqqy gets the combat tractor to waste important enemy capital ships, so u dont really need to field capital ships for taqqy. Also both can dodge any torps from torp wielding capital ships.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 3:29 pm

Doesn't the large cost of cloaking also work against the Negh'Var?

posted on March 17th, 2011, 5:32 pm

I realized I didn't really know enough details to discuss this, so I went and did some research.

One thing I think should be changed is the Imperial Research costs 600/300.  Research stations are generally either 400/200 or 600/300, and even though Imp Research is an advanced structure, its research options are limited and Klingons already have so many tech buildings, I think it should be changed to 400/200 like the Armory.

As for Large-scale cloak, not only does it cost 900 Dilithium and 2300 Tritanium, it takes over five minutes to research!!!  The fight could be long over by the time it's finished.  I think they could make it cost 500/1000 or even be completely free and it would still be balanced with a research time like that.

I played with the Cho'naQ a bit and remembered how incredibly awesome it is.  That is a fun ship.    But what really keeps you from getting it is the cost of an Imperial yard.  1000 Dilithium for a yard with only 3 ships?  And that's for Martok, Taqroja has to pay 1400.  It should be the same cost as a Battle Yard.  If they actually want to build Imperial yard ships, they'll end up paying for tech buildings anyway.

[Anonymous]

posted on March 17th, 2011, 5:52 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on March 17th, 2011, 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The nice thing about the ChonaQ is that it's something unique. I think the problem is that the beam doesn't feel strong enough to justify the use of special energy. The thought behind it is a very Klingon one: just put a damn huge gun on a fragile ship, move it to the enemy and boom. The problem is: the ChonaQ doesn't give you a boom, it's not a HSA. It's just a fragile ship without cloaking device and with some blue beam that stops shooting when out of energy.

Edit: looked it up in the guide: it's even the slowest Klingon ship . It can't shoot, it can't run, it can't cloak, it can't absorb fire, it needs an expensive yard. The ship needs a total overhaul, putting it to KBQ yard wouldn't solve the problem.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 6:24 pm

the chonaq does enough damage for me, i dont like the fact that once it runs out it does almost nothing, i'd like for it to do reduced damage when out of spinach. maybe the chonaq could continue firing without energy, but cause damage to itself lol. also it sadly wastes fire on ships that are already dead but havnt had the decency to just explode already.

i made an idea thread about imperial yard:
Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Honour and the Imperial Yard

posted on March 17th, 2011, 6:28 pm

Damage to itself... I remember suggesting that idea some time back. I still support it.

posted on March 17th, 2011, 6:31 pm

Damage to itself... I remember suggesting that idea some time back. I still support it.

really, i dont remember it  , but i'll take your word that its your idea would fit the klink idea.