Excelsior Class Refit

posted on February 7th, 2013, 5:57 pm

@Tyler: One books aren't canon, IO have actually been told that a lot of times. But the USS Excelsior was never in Star Trek Generations so it wouldn't have been in the novelization for the movie. I have read many books for Star Trek in the TMP Era (especially for use with making my "Generational Mod") and I haven't read anything about any Excelsior-class starship or the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 having any Saucer Separation drills under the command of Captain Sulu or anyone else for that matter. I'd like to know exactly what book even says that so I could read it, maybe there are a few that I haven't read yet.

Please don't put words in my mouth, especially ones that contradict my normal stance on canon (I've always been 'only on-screen is canon' in the forum). I never said novels are canon, all I did was list 2 of the possible origin points for at least some of the idea that the Excelsior can seperate.

For the for the USS Excelsior part, I got that from Memory Alpha; the Apocrypha section mentions that Sulu had just finished an emergency seperation drill when he was told the Kirk was dead in the novelization of Generations. The same for the USS Hood.

The novelization of Star Trek Generations showed Captain Hikaru Sulu conducting an emergency drill aboard the USS Excelsior when he received news of Kirk's death from Pavel Chekov. The ship had just completed an emergency saucer separation when the communication was received.

The novelization of TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" indicated that Commander Riker had completed manual docking of the saucer section on the USS Hood and before that, the USS Lexington.

posted on February 7th, 2013, 10:02 pm

@Myles: I'm not going to arge this out with you here, but on the contrary, the Admiral was replaced for the entire two part episode in DS9. It was the Changlings entire plan to have Earth think a Dominion Invasion was imminent. Sisko had proof at the time it wasn't and the Changling couldn't have that. The Defiant was coming with proof to support Sisko's claims and the Changling wanted the crew of the Lakota, especially it's commanding officer to think that everyone aboard the Defiant had been replaced by Changlings. He did the same to get Sisko sent to the brig at Starfleet Command (using his own blood in place of Sisko's).

I don't know what I have to do to point you in the right direction with this information, except rematch the episodes on Netflix like I have.

@Tyler: I have the novelization for Star Trek Generations and I've taken it off my bookshelf to review it by skimming through it, and there is no mention of Pavel Checov sending Captain Sulu a message about Kirk's death in space aboard the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-B. To further that, I haven't even found a mention of the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 performing Saucer Separation Drills at the time.

I really like to see you find the page and quote it word for word, especially since I went through the entire book until they get to the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-D and the scenes with Worf's promotion.

More Excelsior-class links. Some say Saucer Separation MIGHT be possible but no confirmation what so ever.

http://thefsd.tripod.com/starships/excelsior.html

http://www.starshipdatalink.net/starships/excelsior.html

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Excelsior

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Talk:USS_Excelsior

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/excelsior-size.htm

This has a historical timeline, mentions Sulu, Excelsior and other ships and events, nothing about a Saucer Separation Drill for the Excelsior or Sulu even hearing about Kirk's death.http://www.ridgenet.net/~curtdan/Excelsior/Timeline.html

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0001473/bio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Starfleet_starships_ordered_by_class#Excelsior_class

I like to honestly know where you've heard about Sulu and the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 actually having Saucer Separation Drills or anything, Google and other search engines aren't even catching any hits, and that includes with the novelization for Star Trek Generations.

posted on February 7th, 2013, 10:17 pm

@Myles: I'm not going to arge this out with you here, but on the contrary, the Admiral was replaced for the entire two part episode in DS9. It was the Changlings entire plan to have Earth think a Dominion Invasion was imminent. Sisko had proof at the time it wasn't and the Changling couldn't have that. The Defiant was coming with proof to support Sisko's claims and the Changling wanted the crew of the Lakota, especially it's commanding officer to think that everyone aboard the Defiant had been replaced by Changlings. He did the same to get Sisko sent to the brig at Starfleet Command (using his own blood in place of Sisko's).

I don't know what I have to do to point you in the right direction with this information, except rematch the episodes on Netflix like I have.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Leyton

read it. you are mistaken. leyton was just a loony, not a changeling. maybe you fell asleep while streaming it?

leyton's plans were certainly what you said, make everyone scared of a dominion attack, get the civilian government to support more power for the military. but he did that out of misguided desire to protect earth and the federation.

you may be getting confused with the scene in the first part where a changeling impersonates leyton, odo immediately discovers it and it leaves.

posted on February 7th, 2013, 10:18 pm

I said in the post exactly where it came from:

For the for the USS Excelsior part, I got that from Memory Alpha; the Apocrypha section mentions that Sulu had just finished an emergency seperation drill when he was told the Kirk was dead in the novelization of Generations. The same for the USS Hood.

Saucer Seperation page, to be more specific. If it is absent from the novel, someone should bring it up over at MA.

posted on February 8th, 2013, 12:29 am

Meh the separation ability of an excelsior is a moot point to me.

As for the Excelsior Refit, I suspect they are a limited run, specialized vessel. With a dwindling need they probably werent pushed too heavily into service. The Lakota is an extensive refit, most likely pulled from retirement or mothball and designated for use as a courier vessel or personal flagship to an admiral who had an affiliation or nostalgia with the design.

Ive always supported her as a rare warp in, Ive also supported the officer and veteran ranks following along the lines of the Lakota in terms of armament power and resiliance.

To me the Lakota is a hotrod of kinds, you take an old car modernize the whole thing, she still looks like the original class but under the hood shes sporting a better motor, better suspension and all the latest features a new car would. A lovely blend of new and old

posted on February 8th, 2013, 7:33 am

@Tyler: I am getting really tired of this, it doesn't really matter what the Apocrypha Section for the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 says because the main part of the article is what is true and related directly to the ship and even the full Excelsior-class as well because that section holds EVERYTHING that is of: "Questionable authenticity" so it is best to ignore it because Memory Alpha is only for everything that is canon to Star Trek so that means it only covers what is seen on screen and in the movies. If they place something in the Apocrypha Section it is because it isn't canon and no canon source supports it and no canon source means that it is false.

Plus as I have said now going on 3 times is that I have (OWN) the novelization for Star Trek Generations and there isn't any mention of Captain Sulu, the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 and any message being sent to him from Checov involving news of Kirk's death during a Saucer Separation Drill. That is why it is in that section because it is totally under "Questionable authenticity".

Anyone could have wrote that there just because they wanted to, it is a Wiki site after all and anyone can edit it if they have an account, someone that assumes there is Saucer Separation on the Excelsior-class and that the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 was preforming a Saucer Separation Drill. (I have in fact contact the admins for Memory Alpha and have been given permission to re-edit any page that has errors on it to canon, I have shown proof that Star Trek Generations (the movie or the novelization) does not mention anything about Saucer Separation and have been given permission to edit the article to remove it. That error is now fixed. This isn't the first time that I have found errors on Memory Alpha (and Memory Beta) and now I can actually do the right thing and edit them to fix the problems, but when I have the time. Also, I find it really interesting that it was a recent edit for Saucer Separation on the Excelsior, when that movie and book came out in the year 1994.)

@Myles: I have watched the two parter episodes from Star Trek Deep Space Nine "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" on Netflix and I have come to the conclusion that you are right that Leyton was only being impersonated for awhile, but that doesn't mean that you have been right on everything; I have found some mistakes that you have even made about Leyton, and a few other things as well, so in all due respects, we have both been wrong.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Homefront_(episode)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost_(episode)

As for the Lakota almost defeating the Defiant:

In Leyton's office, Sisko tries to convince Leyton that removing an elected President and establishing a military dictatorship on Earth will never be accepted by the people of the Federation and could even lead to civil war. Having the Lakota fire on the Defiant is the first step down that dark path, but Leyton refuses to cancel the order.

On the Defiant, the crew wonder if the Lakota crew are bluffing however once they enter weapons range they are fired upon by the Excelsior class ship. Chief O'Brien notes that the Lakota seems to have had its weapons upgraded, and unwilling to risk dropping shields to cloak and unsure they can outrun the Lakota, the crew's only option is to fight their way out.

Leyton notes the irony that Sisko had originally been more interested in engineering than he was command, until Leyton made him First Officer but notes that he didn't teach Ben about loyalty. Sisko balks at this, feeling Leyton is the last person to talk about loyalty when he's broken his oath to Starfleet and ordered one of its ships to fire on another.

Just then Benteen hails Leyton and the Admiral, still at phaser-point, answers. Benteen informs him they've been unable to stop the Defiant due to her ablative armor (the equipping of which wasn't on the record). Leyton amends his orders so that Defiant isn't to be disabled but destroyed at any cost. Benteen is shocked, and Sisko pleads with her not to kill the Starfleet officers serving on the Defiant since she knows there's no Changelings on board. Benteen ends the transmission after Leyton reminds her of her orders.

Both the Defiant and the Lakota have been badly damaged, and a good hit from either will finish the other off. The Defiant crew are unwilling to use deadly force against the other crew... and it seems the Lakota crew feel the same as the ship backs off and hails.

Sisko is contacted by Worf, who tells him the Lakota is escorting the Defiant to Earth however both ships suffered casualties. Sisko tells Leyton that by now Odo will have presented his evidence to Jaresh-Inyo... his plot is over. Leyton still refuses to accept this, and tells Sisko he has enough officers left to make a fight of it. Sisko tells him he'll be fighting Starfleet now as well and Benteen, who was his closest ally, has already abandoned him so it'll be only a matter time before the others do too. Finally accepting he's been beaten, Leyton takes off his insignia and leaves his office to be arrested but hopes that Sisko isn't making a mistake.

posted on February 8th, 2013, 10:54 am

I have found some mistakes that you have even made about Leyton, and a few other things as well, so in all due respects, we have both been wrong.

you haven't pointed out any of my points you think are wrong, please do so. so far you've just given a narration of the key events of the episode. which i maintain support my only contested assertion, that the battle can't be accepted as conclusive evidence for which ship would win. i say this because neither side ever tried their hardest to destroy the other. one could easily assume either ship is stronger. if you want to say the defiant is stronger you could point out that the lakota was in worse shape at the end. if you want the lakota to be stronger you can point out that they never even used their quantums. the evidence is worthless as neither side gave it their all.

posted on February 8th, 2013, 3:31 pm

@Tyler: I am getting really tired of this, it doesn't really matter what the Apocrypha Section for the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 says because the main part of the article is what is true and related directly to the ship and even the full Excelsior-class as well because that section holds EVERYTHING that is of: "Questionable authenticity" so it is best to ignore it because Memory Alpha is only for everything that is canon to Star Trek so that means it only covers what is seen on screen and in the movies. If they place something in the Apocrypha Section it is because it isn't canon and no canon source supports it and no canon source means that it is false.

Plus as I have said now going on 3 times is that I have (OWN) the novelization for Star Trek Generations and there isn't any mention of Captain Sulu, the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 and any message being sent to him from Checov involving news of Kirk's death during a Saucer Separation Drill. That is why it is in that section because it is totally under "Questionable authenticity".

Anyone could have wrote that there just because they wanted to, it is a Wiki site after all and anyone can edit it if they have an account, someone that assumes there is Saucer Separation on the Excelsior-class and that the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 was preforming a Saucer Separation Drill. (I have in fact contact the admins for Memory Alpha and have been given permission to re-edit any page that has errors on it to canon, I have shown proof that Star Trek Generations (the movie or the novelization) does not mention anything about Saucer Separation and have been given permission to edit the article to remove it. That error is now fixed. This isn't the first time that I have found errors on Memory Alpha (and Memory Beta) and now I can actually do the right thing and edit them to fix the problems, but when I have the time. Also, I find it really interesting that it was a recent edit for Saucer Separation on the Excelsior, when that movie and book came out in the year 1994.)

If anyone should be getting tired, it's me since it's my posts being distorted and reworded by another to create an argument that doesn't exist. The only thing I've done in this thread is state 2 possible sources for the 'Excelsior Seperation' theory and then say where that info came from, at no point have I ever claimed it can seperate or that novels are canon. It's all in your head. I've already said this before, yet you continue to make replies unrelated to what I said. You're also probably going to twist this into a claim that it can seperate, aren't you?

Also, going by your comment on the Valdore/Norexan/Mogai... I really don't think you should talk about canon if you think info from a card game is valid.

Also, someone at MA claims to have read it and says the Excerlsior part is in the novel of Generations. You may want to take your argument over there.

posted on February 8th, 2013, 5:58 pm

Regardless of canonical specifications, what would the point of an Excelsior Class that could separate into two, weaker ships be in FleetOps gameplay?

I can't think of too many uses for them. Usually, saucer separations are used in emergency situations. In FleetOps, the primary 'emergency situation' you would encounter with an Excelsior class would be its imminent destruction. However, the Excelsior class is slow to begin with, and it's doubtful that you would be able to save your Excelsior (or even half of it) by separating it into two slower, weaker ships.

The only reason I could think I would want to separate an Excelsior Class would be if the saucer and drive sections would have different special abilities when separated, but such functionality would make saucer separation into a standard procedure instead of an emergency procedure.

In conclusion, there would be no point in adding a saucer separation to a 'refitted' Excelsior class in FleetOps, especially if we don't even have a Galaxy class separation option.

However, it would be cool if the ship got a 'refit' skin at an officer rank, like someone suggested earlier in this form.

posted on February 8th, 2013, 6:38 pm

@Tyler: I have already taken it to Memory Alpha and I was also given authorized permission to delete the entry about the Excelsior being mentioned in Star Trek Generations (the novelization, and a saucer separation drill when it's totally 100% false), I showed them proof and then I was told I could edit the wrong information out of the page.

All I was saying Tyler was that your two possible sources don't actually mention Saucer Separation for the Excelsior-class or the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 where they are saying they are supposed to through some unknown person's edit at Memory Alpha, that's why people need to learn to take what they read at Memory Alpha (the Star Trek Wiki for Canon Star Trek), Memory Beta (the Star Trek Wiki for Non-Canon Star Trek), & Memory Gamma (the Star Trek Wiki for Fanon [Fan Made/Fan Fiction] Star Trek).

**Guess I should never offer help or offer the correct information when someone states something wrong, because it isn't going to end well especially in this case where I've read the novelization your using Memory Alpha to quote and it isn't anywheres in that book, that's all I've been saying; and you even pretty much declined my offer to actually look it up too and state the page it's on if it was, a small section can be very easy to miss sometimes.

**I will post my Romulan reply to that thread since it isn't relevant here.**

posted on February 9th, 2013, 3:26 am

Good job hijacking the thread, everyone.

posted on February 9th, 2013, 3:51 am

Yeah, sorry about that...

All I was saying Tyler was that your two possible sources don't actually mention Saucer Separation for the Excelsior-class or the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 where they are saying they are supposed to through some unknown person's edit at Memory Alpha, that's why people need to learn to take what they read at Memory Alpha (the Star Trek Wiki for Canon Star Trek), Memory Beta (the Star Trek Wiki for Non-Canon Star Trek), & Memory Gamma (the Star Trek Wiki for Fanon [Fan Made/Fan Fiction] Star Trek).

Ask the people over at MA, because there is someone over there that does not agree with you. Whether the novel includes it or not isn't the point; the point is that MA makes the claim, which means it's there for people to see. I never claimed it was right.

**Guess I should never offer help or offer the correct information when someone states something wrong, because it isn't going to end well especially in this case where I've read the novelization your using Memory Alpha to quote and it isn't anywheres in that book, that's all I've been saying; and you even pretty much declined my offer to actually look it up too and state the page it's on if it was, a small section can be very easy to miss sometimes.

There isn't anything to help when I was still only relaying what MA says that might influence peoples views, not making any claims of my own about it actually being in the book.

I think you may have misinterpreted my posts...

posted on February 9th, 2013, 5:56 am

@Tyler: I didn't misinterpret your posts, I knew exactly what you were saying, I honestly think you were misinterpreting me because I only said what was wrong with the Memory Alpha article and its already been changed there, especially since I asked if I could edit it and got permission to do so, I even showed proof how it wasn't in the novelization for Star Trek Generations.

Here is proof the article has been fixed:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saucer_separation#Apocrypha
It should still be edited unless that same someone tried to change it again.

You know the Memory Beta page (for novels) doesn't even mention any of those saucer separations.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Saucer_separation

posted on February 9th, 2013, 12:23 pm

So you knew I wasn't saying it was in the book?

You may want to check out the talk page, multiple people disagree with you about the Excelsior. One's also put up a screenshot of Page 61.

posted on February 9th, 2013, 9:56 pm

@Tyler:I own the book and it isn't in it on any page including page 61.
Plus books aren't canon anyways, and I really don't care anymore.