Counters in ToolTips

posted on May 28th, 2011, 5:25 am

I think a counter to a ship should appear in the tool tops under the Defensive/Offensive/System Value output, so players know what is best to be produced to counter what the enemy is throwing at them. It would allow us new players a chance to play rather than being sitting ducks and avoid being called stupid and the like for building a ship that isn't a counter of another.

posted on May 28th, 2011, 5:57 am

I actually think this is a really good idea. Maybe a "Strong VS" and "Weak VS" line in the tooltip to flesh it out a bit. I think I might actually incorporate this idea myself now... 

posted on May 28th, 2011, 6:17 am

I agree that this is a good Idea,

It might also be usefull if tool tips said 'this ship is a battle ship' or 'this ship is a destroyer'. Because some pasives say '+ 32 % resistance to destroyers' or something like that. but to be honest, I don't know which enemy ships are destroyers, I can guess battle ships & scouts, but beyond that.....  I have no idea 

posted on May 28th, 2011, 7:11 am

i agree with ship type name

i disagree with the "counter" label because every patch a ship's function changes, not all units have a specific counter (for example for an assimilator it could say a bird of pray is it's counter but in reality a BoP can't even counter it even though it has the "appropriate" passive to counter the assimilator)

posted on May 28th, 2011, 8:33 am

I think at least we need ship size and type. And some way of knowing the passives from the tooltip, to know what ship to build before you build it.

posted on May 28th, 2011, 9:29 am

it cant list counters for specific ships. because there are so many.

like a monsoon counters several ships. e2, sang, combat assimilator etc. listing them all would be cluttering.

maybe the passive could be mentioned in the tooltip in the same way it is mentioned in unit analyses in the guide:

(passive: High Density Shield Generators - strong versus long range, weak versus short range)

that way you can get a general idea of what's coming. and see the passive before you build. listing specific counters will clutter a lot though.

posted on May 29th, 2011, 12:16 am

If a ship doesn't have a counter then there shouldn't be any ship listed. It just needs to be a rough guide, as this game is way off balance when one doesn't or can't memorise all the counters and gets slaughtered by someone who does.

What made me want this is by last game where I and my teammate were defeated, it was my fault, as I was against a Romulan player and he knew the counters and I didn't, and then afterwards on teamspeak I was called stupid by the said player because I built Monsoons and ntrepids instead of Sabers. I had no idea about this counter.

When I confront the guy in lobby chat (via a game we were waiting to play) he didn't even have the decently of appologising and just went with his mate to another TS channel. I won't be playing with him again, treating newbies like that.

Anyway my point is, you want more players regularly, then this thing is a great idea, I have been very tempted to stop playing this game as I am nailed regularly because I can't memorise counters and simply don't know what to build as it's depended on what you're up against.

I enjoy playing the game and don't mind loosing as I play to have fun, but after always getting nailed in that fashion, letting down team mates, then being called stupid and playing dumb afterwards, I think this is a required feature to bring and more importantly keep players.

posted on May 29th, 2011, 12:43 am

You're actually a very smart player, Majestic.  We had a good time in that 4v4.  You saved my base, and I'm greatful.

Sadly, Myles is correct.  Fleet Ops is cool, but it's super complex.  The best thing I can recommend is you go to this link, download zebh's spreadsheet thing, and print it out, especially the .20 and .40 ones.  Then you can glance at it and figure things out.  In time, you'll memorize it all and it will be easier.  It's still really easy to forget things, as not all aspects of the game are well documented or in an easy to find place.  The hitchhiker's guide is not a small thing!

And to whoever's being mean on tunngle, I hope you lose your next 5 games!

//www.fleetops.net/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,3/topic,10167.msg167896/#msg167896

posted on May 29th, 2011, 12:53 am

There are no specific counters really, only increased effectiveness. The list is quite long, and usually dependent on experience/micromanagement, as well how big the game gets (how many players) and how much lag . It wouldn't be so helpful to draft such a list, because it's only after you play many many games that you really understand what you can get away with.

It is true of course that there are some 'counters' which are strong and do make a difference in many games, but these are generally learned quite quickly, and they correspond to what the tooltips describe (aka, Leahval vs Bug/Intrepid, Bomber vs Leahval/Intrepid etc). To actually have each vessel target it's specific anti-unit is not always useful, if you want to save clicks and deal more total damage at a time. Thus, it's always a battle .

posted on May 29th, 2011, 8:16 am

There are no real hard counters in Fleet Operations (a hardcounter would what is a bunker against infantry in games like command and conquer for example). Fleet Operations uses a soft counter systems, where some vessels perform better in battle and are more cost effective, but not to a degree where they would vaporize whole fleets of their "victim class". The benefit of using the correct soft counters is a higher cost efficiency in the long run. Good use of special weapons and a good strategy can have a far larger impact on a battle than the passive configuration would.

posted on May 30th, 2011, 2:35 am

You're actually a very smart player, Majestic.  We had a good time in that 4v4.  You saved my base, and I'm greatful.

Thanks, the only real fun game I have had in like the 2 week span. I am no good at 2vs2, I let my teammate down too much so I think if I do play games it will be 3vs3 or 4vs4. However I haven't been able to get in one, I almost did but it was closed on me.

Maybe it's time to throw up the white flag and just go back to modding full-time.

//www.fleetops.net/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,3/topic,10167.msg167896/#msg167896

Unfortunately I can't make heads or tails of this spreadsheet.

posted on May 30th, 2011, 4:11 am

Maybe it's time to throw up the white flag and just go back to modding full-time.

Hey mate, listen, you and i mabye aren't the best pros out there, but you sure are able to hold your own. Period. I would hate to see you give up playing FO online because the so-called pros think your stupid. Your not. Like Mal said, your a very smart and resourceful player, and just because you don't know every passive and counter in the book doesn't mean your an outcast and a reject thats unworhty of playing with others. That is a sign of very poor sportsmanship on the account of whoever did this, and i hope this guy gets it served to him. No one should be treated like that. >:(

And about you ideas for the counters, i think thats a good idea. Whilst having every counter would be bulky, a class description (kinda like what there is for support ships, fighter carriers, etc.) would be a huge help.

posted on May 30th, 2011, 4:27 pm

I would do something a bit in the idea of the game "Civilization". If you've played it before, there is something called "the civilopedia", its basically shows you everything about everything in the game. I think it should be available through the main menu to avoid spending so much time on the net trying to search for the right ship,If you have a good enough search system. There can also be a "compare" button in it so you don't have to scroll up-down all the time.
otherwise, in-game I agree with Myles

it cant list counters for specific ships. because there are so many.
like a monsoon counters several ships. e2, sang, combat assimilator etc. listing them all would be cluttering.
maybe the passive could be mentioned in the tooltip in the same way it is mentioned in unit analyses in the guide:
(passive: High Density Shield Generators - strong versus long range, weak versus short range)
that way you can get a general idea of what's coming. and see the passive before you build. listing specific counters will clutter a lot though.

posted on May 30th, 2011, 4:53 pm

Maybe it's time to throw up the white flag and just go back to modding full-time.

Not at all.  You've got great potential, and I would hate to see that go to waste.

posted on May 30th, 2011, 4:57 pm

Not at all.  You've got great potential, and I would hate to see that go to waste.

yeah, you could totally be curing cancer instead of playing a computer game... oh wait, wrong message 

yeah computer games are not a waste of anybody's potential