Changing FO's Early Game

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on May 31st, 2010, 2:47 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on May 31st, 2010, 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lol, it fits this thread perfectly. I agree with the second idea, without any of these ridiculous freighter warp-ins (btw do you want some warp-in Sovereigns and Excelsior-IIs to kill the enemy with too? That way you don't even have to build anything.) Mine your own damn resources.

I like both options, though I would prefer the second one be a separate game mode. Starting with just enough to build a mining station sounds like a fun challenge, but that would probably cause matches to draw on longer then they should in a standard game. I'd like to eliminate the problem too, as there are times I'm not able determine what ships my enemy is building and thus I can't determine what to counter with. This problem is even more prevalent in Sigma since it's very counter-heavy.

The time increase wouldn't be much, as once mining is up it would be just like a few minutes into the game where you've used up your starting resources.


I'd also like to see Feds start out with one more combat ship available upon Antares yard completion, as right now it's always "build Sabers until you got chassis upgrade", and Sabers, well I would say that they just aren't good for early game, but honestly they seem to all around suck as anything but cannon fodder. They even die one on one vs. Dominion Bombers (if I recall correctly), a unit that the Saber seems designed to counter (notice it's passive to make things like torpedos miss more...)

Another lousy starter: Currently Borg Scubes tend to always be the same ones early game (1 EM Scube for cloaks, rest are Int. Scubes) and they aren't built at all really in late-game (or even once you can build Dodecs.)

EDIT:Added response to complaint that it may draw out the game.

posted on May 31st, 2010, 2:51 pm

I dont think some ppl get the idea. Its about choosing if u want to invest in economy or ships. If freighters will be warped in with res whats the point of the change. its like getting the economy for free so everybody will just build ships straight away.
the starcraft mentioned b4 is a bit different as you can easily play of 1 base just building more workers. the economy of FO is a bit different so i dont know if this can work well but i would like to see some change to early game.

the point suggested isnt to change the starting level of resources, just to delay those resources for a short while. allowing players to scout and realise what you should be building. so if u find yourself fighting a borg player you can build more susa rather than easy to assimilate brels etc. or if u find yourself against a cloaking race u can start building brels to decloak them. it will basically be like adding a small waiting period at the beginning of the game before u can construct anything more than mining. 30-60 seconds is around the correct idea.

posted on May 31st, 2010, 2:57 pm

If they can construct mining, why give any more free resources at all?

posted on May 31st, 2010, 2:58 pm

Lol, it fits this thread perfectly. I agree with the second idea, without any of these ridiculous freighter warp-ins (btw do you want some warp-in Sovereigns and Excelsior-IIs to kill the enemy with too? That way you don't even have to build anything.) Mine your own damn resources.

lol the idea of the freighters isnt a regular thing, just a cool way of giving you the starting resources instead of them just magically appearing in your storage bays.

I'd also like to see Feds start out with one more combat ship available upon Antares yard completion, as right now it's always "build Sabers until you got chassis upgrade", and Sabers, well I would say that they just aren't good for early game, but honestly they seem to all around suck as anything but cannon fodder. They even die one on one vs. Dominion Bombers (if I recall correctly), a unit that the Saber seems designed to counter (notice it's passive to make things like torpedos miss more...)

sabres arent the only fed route. you could wait until chassis research done and build intrepids/monsoons etc. if u go sabre spam you should be able to make more sabres than a dom bomber spammer, because bomber needs a prototype. most dom players will spam bugs at the start anyway. and i find it hard to believe that 1 on 1 a bomber can kill a sabre mainly because it fires torps which will miss. espcially when u research hyperimpulse. also sabres are long range and fast, they are good kiters.

Another lousy starter: Currently Borg Scubes tend to always be the same ones early game (1 EM Scube for cloaks, rest are Int. Scubes) and they aren't built at all really in late-game (or even once you can build Dodecs.)

em scubes are of course good against cloak races, they are useful later game too, u just have to micro harder to protect them. against cloaking races u should nearly always have at least 1 em scube to pick off a ship or two when they cloak. dodecs can only cloak detect as a station.

also regen scubes arent too bad, they can regenerate and be back in battle faster than intercept scube.

posted on May 31st, 2010, 2:59 pm

If they can construct mining, why give any more free resources at all?

starting off with enough res for mining only would be kinda boring. its not mining ops its fleetops. i dont wanna sit still watching my miners fly around a moon. it can take several minutes just to save enough res for a yard and then you gotta wait for more res for ships

posted on May 31st, 2010, 3:01 pm

the point suggested isnt to change the starting level of resources, just to delay those resources for a short while. allowing players to scout and realise what you should be building. so if u find yourself fighting a borg player you can build more susa rather than easy to assimilate brels etc. or if u find yourself against a cloaking race u can start building brels to decloak them. it will basically be like adding a small waiting period at the beginning of the game before u can construct anything more than mining. 30-60 seconds is around the correct idea.

Aye, that was exactly the idea for the first suggestion (and I really like your way of implementing it) . The second suggestion was more radical, and doesn't necessarily fit with Fleet Ops (as it would make the early game pace much slower and require new balancing), but the first suggestion only causes a slight delay to make it much more important to scout and figure out what your opponent is doing. I don't like having to cancel construction of units when they are 30 seconds in (prototypes), or realize that I'm screwed because I tried a build order I know that doesn't work against a particular faction and avatar.  :sweatdrop:

posted on May 31st, 2010, 3:03 pm

indeed, like building susa and then finding your enemy is feds with sabres that will soon have hyperimpulse and your enemy has like 15 sabres and u have 2 susas ok thats extreme but u get what i mean lol.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on May 31st, 2010, 3:08 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on May 31st, 2010, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lol the idea of the freighters isnt a regular thing, just a cool way of giving you the starting resources instead of them just magically appearing in your storage bays.

Ah, so they'd come over at the beginning and give you just enough for a mining station or two? Sounds good.

sabres arent the only fed route. you could wait until chassis research done and build intrepids/monsoons etc. if u go sabre spam you should be able to make more sabres than a dom bomber spammer, because bomber needs a prototype. most dom players will spam bugs at the start anyway. and i find it hard to believe that 1 on 1 a bomber can kill a sabre mainly because it fires torps which will miss. espcially when u research hyperimpulse. also sabres are long range and fast, they are good kiters.

Wasn't kiting nerfed not long ago? The torpedos might miss a lot, but they do do damage, Sabers do technically do damage, but it's not much (I would love to see a torpedo launcher on the Saber sometime, maybe with a slow reload.) It takes some time to build the research and then research chassis (about two Sabers worth of build time.)

em scubes are of course good against cloak races, they are useful later game too, u just have to micro harder to protect them. against cloaking races u should nearly always have at least 1 em scube to pick off a ship or two when they cloak. dodecs can only cloak detect as a station.

also regen scubes arent too bad, they can regenerate and be back in battle faster than intercept scube.

Regen Scubes aren't something I normally build (as I can easily get some Regen and Intercept module Dodecs out pretty fast, no point in having some Regen Scubes still around), but what about beam Scubes? Also currently it's only 1 EM Scube, I think they need to be more appealing.

starting off with enough res for mining only would be kinda boring. its not mining ops its fleetops. i dont wanna sit still watching my miners fly around a moon. it can take several minutes just to save enough res for a yard and then you gotta wait for more res for ships

It would be a slow start, but it certainly would allow you time to plan a strategy.

posted on May 31st, 2010, 3:13 pm

Please keep the strategy discussion in a separate thread - I'd love to respond, but I won't do so in a Feature Request thread

posted on May 31st, 2010, 3:16 pm

they come in and give u what u normally start with now, just maybe in stages.

kiting isnt as powerful as it once was, but the sabre is still pretty good at it.

for opti borg a good first build is 3 scubes 2 probes. now if u want to wait til sphere after that build then those scubes can be good as regen scubes, as it will heal faster when out of battle. if an intercept scube takes damage it takes all year to repair.

u only usually have 1 or 2 em scubes in your fleet, but cloaking players will obviously blow them up if they are clever, meaning u will have to build more, or let them roam free.

posted on May 31st, 2010, 5:05 pm

Got to say that I like the overall intention of this idea, it's just that I fear it would cause such a dramatic shift in what exists already.

  Of the two ideas, I think I would honestly prefer just fewer starting resources.  That would ultimately fix the issue of "Hard strats".