Bringing back starting units

[Andre27]

posted on January 26th, 2012, 12:24 am

Last edited by Andre27 on January 26th, 2012, 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

One of the features in FO is the fact that there are no starting combat units.
In this topic: Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Slow down construction when under attack a remark was placed just how strong rushing tactics are.

Warp-in tactics are also often rushing tactics, one that is often complained about.

A possible and quite simple solution against those early rushing imbalances would be to add a small number of low level starting combat units as in stock A1/A2

How do you feel about this option?

posted on January 26th, 2012, 12:36 am

i think we will just have to wait and see how the new  patch plays in game.

posted on January 26th, 2012, 1:20 am

Most "rushes" being called rushes in FO are not - in fact - rushes. They're just building a unit first, rather than rushing to it. Aka, an Assimilator "rush" for most people is building an Assimilator as your first unit - but NOT using Resistance is Futile to get it with only two freighters.

The SFC "rush" is also, not a rush - it's possible to get SFC far earlier - but as with most rushes - it comes with some obvious and severe issues for the rusher.

In any case, starting units are not an answer to balance, but instead encourage real rushing or attacking before you have a combat unit, as these are units you don't pay for. Early versions of V3 of FO had these issues, as the Borg came with a Probe as a starting unit, which is a far more powerful "scout". Likewise, again, later versions of FO had a more powerful Detector, which caused similar problems.

posted on January 26th, 2012, 1:25 am

I am against this feature as a ballence thing, However i would like to see the feature resurected for moding (the AI where you could slect different starting unit configurations), as this would help me greatly.

posted on January 26th, 2012, 1:44 am

This could be cool as an option in the advanced tab for game setup. Ie like free tech and super side In stock a2.

posted on January 26th, 2012, 1:47 am

In any case, starting units are not an answer to balance, but instead encourage real rushing or attacking before you have a combat unit, as these are units you don't pay for. Early versions of V3 of FO had these issues, as the Borg came with a Probe as a starting unit, which is a far more powerful "scout". Likewise, again, later versions of FO had a more powerful Detector, which caused similar problems.

Could this not easily be solved by adjusting the number of combat starting units?
E.g 4 borg scouts vs 2 Sabers vs 3 bugs etc

posted on January 26th, 2012, 1:58 am

I am against this feature as a ballence thing, However i would like to see the feature resurected for moding (the AI where you could slect different starting unit configurations), as this would help me greatly.

Yes, this is on todo

Could this not easily be solved by adjusting the number of combat starting units?
E.g 4 borg scouts vs 2 Sabers vs 3 bugs etc

No, because that assumes that everybody plays with exactly one build order. If we assume that a Faction Z with particular build order X is unbalanced for instance, and therefore give 3 units to an opponent Y, then if that particular build order X is not used against that opponent Y, that opponent Y has an advantage at game start without any production required. Or, you could consider that Faction Z with particular build order X is unbalanced, and faces a Faction Z that does not use that build.

Thus we prefer to create balance with "real units and resources" in order not to force decisions upon game start .

posted on January 26th, 2012, 9:08 am

This could be cool as an option in the advanced tab for game setup. Ie like free tech and super side In stock a2.

super side (where you start with each races' constructors) was only possible in armada 1. armada 2 does not allow to configure actual starting units, only techtree. in armada 1 you could choose techtree and starting units

posted on January 26th, 2012, 1:07 pm

Shame this doesn't seem to be possible. It could have been an interesting option giving starting units to specific players acting as a handicap for skill.
I'm against it as a default option. It would be very hard to balance: Thankfully there aren't really like for like units in terms of strength, so weaker races getting more or higher range/tech units being one problem - the borg could dodge this with assimilated units. I suspect with a bit of micromanaged kiting or staggered hit an run a quick player coud create an unfair advantage even if there wasn't one. and recycling them for cash would be a flat out gamble that would also undermine the game - especially against someone with cloaking technology

posted on January 26th, 2012, 3:53 pm

I think I prefer the idea that balance between similarly skilled players is better achieved through adjustments in units and by tweaking the tempos of the various factions.

However, I'll also add my voice to the chorus of those who want to be able to add a few units to a weaker player as a handicap.

posted on January 26th, 2012, 11:43 pm

An easier way to enforce a handicap is just to have the experienced player wait ~30 seconds before his starting ships produce.

posted on January 26th, 2012, 11:49 pm

I'm torn.

I remember asking for this previously, but understand the extreme difficulties in achieving balance.

All the same, I remember from both A1 and A2 one of my favourite parts of the game was the very first time playing each mission and looking over my starting units and objectives.

Sometimes it was the star base, other times it was a fleet, sometimes it was a star base, fleet, and whole bunch of stations too. But I always got excited by it.

Even so, this would be fixed starting pieces, so not as exciting. Unless you had it where it was randomized between a few settings like warpin slots are with percents for various ships appearing. You begin with a number of ships, but theres a chance it might only be 2, or it could be 4. And which is completely chance, it could be 3 destroyers, or 1 cruiser 1 destroyer. But again balance for that is iffy. But at least you wouldn't know from any side where you stand. You wouldn't know whether your opponent got 2 ships in his start or 4 or whatever. So giving options like that with percentage changes could be interesting.

But in general, yeah, I'm not so sure giving starting units would be great.

But for AI game options.... DEFINITELY!!! In ADVANCED settings!!!!

posted on January 27th, 2012, 9:15 am

Could you make an option on the instant action screen so you can set it as a handicap. Im rubbish against real people so if I were to play online it would make things easyier for noobs like me.

posted on January 27th, 2012, 6:45 pm

Yeah, it would be awesome to have this as an option again.