Borg Energy Nodes Level 6

posted on August 15th, 2010, 12:18 pm

When people have games that last long, there is a stage reached where lack of money is usually not a problem anymore. Most have several moon pairs at this time and can have 5 - 10 yards working nonstop. Federation, Klingons and Romulans are balanced quite fine in this stage of the game. The dominion is somewhat superior to them, because of their cheap ships but that is another topic. The Borg however face a problem in such a very late game.

They run out of connections.

Although Energy Nodes Level 5 is reached, the collective connections accumulate to slow to match the other races ship building capabilites. In your typical short lategame in rush heavy online matches, this is not a problem. However, if the late game stage of the game last a while longer Borg get more and more trouble to match the other races shipbuilding capabilities.

In the end, in the time I got enough collective connections to build an additional taccube all other races built more than enough ships to deal with that additional cube.

When I get a new cube, my foe gets enough ships to deal with 1.5 cubes.  Over time, I can only loose, because I cannot match their production in means of power.

The only reason for this is the lack of collective connections I can accumulate. I have more than enough dilithium, tritanium and supply to match the production of my opponent - if connections would allow.

Resistance is futile is not an option, not only it requires additional micro because the research menu always closes itself after using it, but it is far to expensive supply wise, to use it in late game. To build a cube only by using this, you alone need 600 supplies for it. No reasonable ammount of even optimized incubation centers is capable of compensating such a demand.

Resistance is futile costs are fine, I dont propose that be changed, because it would imbalance Early and Medium Game.

I however propose that there is another energy node level available. It should increase the speed of collective connections accumulations considerable, perhaps even double it compared to Level 5. It should be very costly to balance it. I thought about 10000 dilithium, 10000 tritanium, 1000 supply and 5 minutes research time.

Energy Nodes level 6 would NOT affect the balancing in your typical online game. You just dont reach this stage of  late game in the average online game. Due to its huge costs, a Borg player would only research it, if it is a very long game.

With this, Borg are still not op in very long games. Please consider that the other players fields over 200 ships at this time of the game. Against the firepower of 80 of those being in range, even taccube armor melts like butter in the sun. Sure, it is taking quite a few ships with it, but when I have replaced my cube my opponent has replaced more ship than he needs to kill it again.

It is a war of wearing down, that i can only loose. Which I did, several times, usually with over 30000 dilithium and 50000 tritannium available... but no connection and little supply, because I used all of that for resistance is futile. And I had my entire base surrounded by optimized incubation centers.

posted on August 15th, 2010, 1:06 pm

how often do games take that long? I mean in most cases people dont even research lvl4 and 5...because you like 2h+ games, that does not mean that Borg need another research...

posted on August 15th, 2010, 1:08 pm

I don't quite remember, but there is one map ... Dakar Corridor or something like that, which is predestined for endless games.

posted on August 15th, 2010, 1:42 pm

I'd agree with this suggestion. This weakness the Borg have in "waiting games" goes against how the Borg should be. To combat the Borg, you should need to strike, because if you wait too long the Borg get too strong. But if what ARES IV said is true, then at the moment, you CAN out-wait the Borg.

posted on August 15th, 2010, 2:04 pm

no you cant outwait any race...turtling will always lead to death in MP games. I am not for adding useless things for extremly seldom events like games taking more than 2h...

posted on August 15th, 2010, 2:48 pm

Would you suffer any by that feature then?

posted on August 15th, 2010, 3:21 pm

i think the borg are good at playing the waiting game, especially on maps with fewer resources.

they can make their supply, and they can put up a recycle centre as opti, they can also upgrade their miners. this can really help a lot in long games.

posted on August 15th, 2010, 4:06 pm

Yeah but he was suggesting that the CC gain rate could be improved, if there is an abundance of resources, so it could be done i suppose, but why not just use resistance is futile?

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on August 15th, 2010, 4:40 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on August 15th, 2010, 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RIS takes a ridiculous 100 supply, even with ten upgraded incubation centers that will take one minute to get. And it only gives you 20 CCs.
The only times I see RIS are for early pyramid with ally trading (your allies cover the huge supply cost) or scube rush (don't worry about killing ur econ since u'll likely crush the enemy, Scube rush is very hard to stop without certain strats.)

I agree CC rates are too slow, level 2 will mean your CC accumulation will not be a problem in a normal game as resource accumulation will keep up with CC levels, but when you do get a large amount of resource income (or simply have a really long game so you end up with excess resources) the CC rate will be too slow even once u fully upgrade it and it will limit the number of cubes to the point where you will undoubtedly lose.

I think CC should be replaced completely (possibly with a crew resource generated with incubation and some new and interesting forms of assimilation), but we'll just have to wait and see what the Borg redo does for CCs.

posted on August 15th, 2010, 5:36 pm

^^;


what about probes? their cheap and deadly...  you can also mix in detectors they do a lot of damage when you have a lot

posted on August 15th, 2010, 6:22 pm

currently probes are not that cheap...so most ppl wait till they get the CCs for better ships. Make probes a little cheaper so there is a good alternative.

posted on August 15th, 2010, 7:33 pm

Ok, so I'm fairly certain you're playing against AI or a buddy who also likes to turtle.  I get it...I do it from time to time.  Here's all you have to do.  As you say, Dil/Tri aren't issues.  Build more Incubation Centers, then buy CC's with supply....unless they got rid of that feature.  I haven't played Borg since the new patch.  Been addicted to Feds/Klingons.

[ARES IV]

posted on August 17th, 2010, 6:49 pm

Last edited by ARES IV on August 17th, 2010, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

how often do games take that long? I mean in most cases people dont even research lvl4 and 5...because you like 2h+ games, that does not mean that Borg need another research...

Our games usually take that long. We prefer long games with their epic battles.

no you cant outwait any race...turtling will always lead to death in MP games. I am not for adding useless things for extremly seldom events like games taking more than 2h...

Actually, with Borg you can, if such a very long game is present. It takes until that, but then your oppenent actually can win by turtling, although ship building is still more effective. We had a game two weeks ago where my Fed mate turtled like hell with Mayson Quantums turrets. My first collosal fleet was capable of decimating those defenses quite badly. Usually it is a escpecially bad idea to turtle against Borg, since a single Tac Cube can fly through several rows of defenses and still survives with enough health to kill the rest of your base. It looked like this way too in this game. Most of his expansions were gone, his defense grid was decimated and he only had a few ships. in his base. Victory for me could only be a question of time.

However, although energy nodes were on level 5 and I had a huge ammount of money, rebuilding my fleet took a lot of time. In this time, my mate corrected his error and concentrated all his efforts on ship building. when my fleet of 6 cubes arrived to clean the remains of his defense grid I noted that he hadnt tried to rebuild it at all. Instead he concentrated on building his fleet. Since it took me so long to get 6 cubes again, because of the lack of connections, his fleet was rather impressive. Alone, I would still have defeated it, if at a good price. However, he still had the support of his remaining torp turrets. When I saw my cubes again melting like butter in the sun, I of course retreated. His fleet was following me and I had to sacrafice a cube to rescue the other 5. I went back to my base to regenerate. I tried it a few times more with even more cubes. At the time I finally managed to destroy his annoying defenses, his fleet of Excel 2 was quite large. His power was growing more and more, because although he had less ressouces available he could produce more power in total. In the end, he was capable of creating enough pressure on me to hold me in the defensive. He could again get access to more moons and that was my doom. Before I could halfway match his power production, because he had a lack or ressources while I had a lack of connections. When his lack of money was no more, he could well outproduce me. Borg dont have good defense, neither should they and so it was mainly an engagements of fleets. I died with over 30000 dilithium and tritanium. I had hardly supply left because I used RIS so often. I had 4 cubes for the final battle that fought heroic, but couldnt win against such masses my opponent fielded. 

I I had had any other races, it had been a clear victory for me. Now, in our more recent games, he does not waste 100 K in turrets, instead he builds mostly ships. As a Borg player, I cannot win against him, with Federation or Dominion it is a different topic.

On a final note, for long games there are several things in this game that are completly useless then. I dont see the

i think the borg are good at playing the waiting game, especially on maps with fewer resources.

they can make their supply, and they can put up a recycle centre as opti, they can also upgrade their miners. this can really help a lot in long games.

Yes, on maps where everyone is starving for ressources, it looks a lot more brighter for the borg, since their ships are immensive powerfull for their cost. However, when money is availabe in good ammount, the lack of connections gets critical on the long term. In such games, the minor advantage of the upgraded miners might be enough to achieve victory.

Yeah but he was suggesting that the CC gain rate could be improved, if there is an abundance of resources, so it could be done i suppose, but why not just use resistance is futile?

Because resistance is futile is far to expensive suplly wise in late game. For a single cube, you need over 600 of supplies, if you have to use this ability. In the game mentioned in the beginning of this post, my corner base was surrounded by 2 rows of maximized incubation centers. Even all those, cannot match that demand. Not to mention it is micro heavy.

And, we cannot reduce the costs of it. Because if we reduce the cost of RIS, it will get more interesting in early game, and that would make he borg more than OP.

So Energy nodes level 6 or something similar is the way to go.

^^;


what about probes? their cheap and deadly...  you can also mix in detectors they do a lot of damage when you have a lot

currently probes are not that cheap...so most ppl wait till they get the CCs for better ships. Make probes a little cheaper so there is a good alternative.

While you can have many of them, neither of them is a match for a late game fleet. I would need a lot more of them than my enemy has late game ships, not a realistic option with Borg.

Ok, so I'm fairly certain you're playing against AI or a buddy who also likes to turtle.  I get it...I do it from time to time.  Here's all you have to do.  As you say, Dil/Tri aren't issues.  Build more Incubation Centers, then buy CC's with supply....unless they got rid of that feature.  I haven't played Borg since the new patch.  Been addicted to Feds/Klingons.

I had this idea too, the problem is that you would likely have to build half the map full of them to get enough supply income to constantly use RIS. That s not an option of obvious reasons. We cant make the supply center much stronger either, because that would once again make Borg much more powerfull in earlier stages of the game.

Would you suffer any by that feature then?

No, he would not, as would most online players. They do simply not reach this stage of game. It wont hurt them at all. It wont affect balancing for this players. The only thing it would do, is to give the Borg realistic changes of winning in a game that last longer than 1 hour.


All I ask is something for the long game likers in the player base.  I realize that the Devs have more focus on quick online matches, but this wouldnt hurt those and is likely not too hard to implement.

posted on August 17th, 2010, 10:40 pm

we are currently working on a major Borg Redo which will solve these issues too

posted on August 18th, 2010, 9:42 pm

we are currently working on a major Borg Redo which will solve these issues too

Cool!