An idea and a doubt.

posted on February 4th, 2012, 1:58 am

My idea is about the gameplay.

When you move the fleet, the game is in 2D, but when the fleet engage a battle, the battle turns 3D and the ships go up, down and side.
The ships doesn't stay stopped shotting, but some ships like Inteprid, Galaxy and other ship about 360° of fire arc can attack and move simultaneously.

When the battle ends, you can move the fleet in 2D.

And my doubt is about the engine of Armada II. If Armada's II Engine allows it.

posted on February 4th, 2012, 2:52 am

Who cares if it allows it or not this won't EVER happen this is an rts game something like that has no place here....how on earth would you micro manage your fleet like that I'm guessing you gave no thought towards that.

You can already toggle it manually so if you like watching your units explode and lose the game you can do that.

posted on February 4th, 2012, 5:08 am

Armada 2 originally was 3D, but it was just annoying (partly because it was only visually 3D).  And it had moving formations (so the ships would move and fire) but they didn't work well either.  Basically it all looked nice but it was a detriment to strategy.

[Lost_Spaceship]

posted on February 4th, 2012, 6:18 am

Last edited by Lost_Spaceship on February 4th, 2012, 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ok, i understand.

Sometimes the 3D Battles could turn difficult the ships management.

But it would be wonderful to see. Mainly when you approach the camera on the battlefield. It will be like the battle scenes in the series.

It would be like "Star Wars: Empire at War", you move on the same plan like Fleet operations, when engage a battle, the ships move to all directions, the Fighters in "Star Wars: Empire at War" move to all directions when engage a battle, when the battle ends, the Fighters return to the same plan and don't go up or down.

I had this idea when i saw this wonderful picture.

//www.fleetops.net/images/Gallery/ ... s_Away.png

It seems the ships attack and move to al directions and aren't on the same plan.

As said, the ships management would be affected.

Thanks for explaining me.

posted on February 4th, 2012, 9:13 am

You know you can press caps lock for a 3d view during the game

posted on February 4th, 2012, 2:03 pm

Empire at war is designed around that concept, though.  I don't think you can toggle 3D on but only when in combat.  That would only create problems, anyway, because then multiple ships could occupy the same spot in 2D space.  Empire at war is designed around tiny fighters and giant capital ships, while in FO the scale is much more limited (smallest > largest) (except for fighters and the Borg, obviously).

Ships can go over and under each other a bit when moving, but it's more there to make it easier to go around each other than to have 3D.  They are all in the same plane.  They just tilt  bit when they turn.

Also, it's purely visual - it doesn't enhance gameplay at all (even if it is possible).

posted on February 4th, 2012, 3:22 pm

yes, i agree. that would be something for a 'cinematic mode' (like armada 1). the current combat system requires some work, too

[Lost_Spaceship]

posted on February 4th, 2012, 7:44 pm

Last edited by Lost_Spaceship on February 4th, 2012, 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ships can go over and under each other a bit when moving, but it's more there to make it easier to go around each other than to have 3D.  They are all in the same plane.  They just tilt  bit when they turn.

Understood.

You know you can press caps lock for a 3d view during the game

Yes, i know.
But i'm talking about to change the ships plane during a battle, not the game view.
For example:
When you order the ships to move to a location, they move on the same plane, the ships can't go up and can't go down, when they engage a battle they move around the target and go up, go down and shoot from all directions, from up, from down, from the sides.

When the Dominion Fighters are launched from the Battlecruiser, they move on the same plane, when they engage a battle, they move around the target to all directions and shoot from all directions.

This is the type of battle i'm talking, but my idea is this type of battle isn't limited to fighters, but extend the limit to Warbirds, Intrepids, Galaxies and others big ships.

[Tryptic]

posted on February 4th, 2012, 8:11 pm

Last edited by Tryptic on February 4th, 2012, 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It would be interesting to have a 3-plane system, or the ability to tell your ships "fly up for a few seconds, then return to the normal plane."  The Fleet Ops engine certainly has enough functionality left over from Armada II to do this.

What I'm more concerned with is whether Fleet Ops targeting is circular or spherical.  If it's simply based in the 2D plane, then it wouldn't make any difference if you fly up or down because the range to target is the same; it would be purely visual.  If it's spherical, however, this could be used to keep your ships "far away" from the enemy, for example triggering the "fly up" command in order to get past a turret wall and take less firepower than you would have.  Minefields would be totally useless.  This mechanic was HIGHLY exploitable in Armada II, which is why it was removed for Fleet Ops.

So if you could do something ridiculous, like give turrets and mines circular targeting and ships spherical targeting, it would be totally cool to have a "fly up" or "fly down" special on a specific ship.  Otherwise there's no real way to give it a gameplay effect without breaking the game.

Now, a cinematic mode with this ability would be a whole other story.  That would be sweet. 

EDIT: the more I think about it, this would be interesting as a visual effect only: for example, if it didn't affect the firing range of the ship at all, it would be fun to have the Brel special fly up above its target real quick and then deliver an attack while swooping down toward the target.  You would have to make sure both movement and weapon ranges ignore the Z axis, which could be a lot of work...

posted on February 4th, 2012, 11:10 pm

It would be interesting to have a 3-plane system, or the ability to tell your ships "fly up for a few seconds, then return to the normal plane."  The Fleet Ops engine certainly has enough functionality left over from Armada II to do this.

What I'm more concerned with is whether Fleet Ops targeting is circular or spherical.  If it's simply based in the 2D plane, then it wouldn't make any difference if you fly up or down because the range to target is the same; it would be purely visual.  If it's spherical, however, this could be used to keep your ships "far away" from the enemy, for example triggering the "fly up" command in order to get past a turret wall and take less firepower than you would have.  Minefields would be totally useless.  This mechanic was HIGHLY exploitable in Armada II, which is why it was removed for Fleet Ops.

So if you could do something ridiculous, like give turrets and mines circular targeting and ships spherical targeting, it would be totally cool to have a "fly up" or "fly down" special on a specific ship.  Otherwise there's no real way to give it a gameplay effect without breaking the game.

Now, a cinematic mode with this ability would be a whole other story.  That would be sweet. 

EDIT: the more I think about it, this would be interesting as a visual effect only: for example, if it didn't affect the firing range of the ship at all, it would be fun to have the Brel special fly up above its target real quick and then deliver an attack while swooping down toward the target.  You would have to make sure both movement and weapon ranges ignore the Z axis, which could be a lot of work...

Agreed!!! 

posted on February 5th, 2012, 4:31 am

So if you could do something ridiculous, like give turrets and mines circular targeting and ships spherical targeting, it would be totally cool to have a "fly up" or "fly down" special on a specific ship.  Otherwise there's no real way to give it a gameplay effect without breaking the game.

I don't think that giving stations column fire would be necessary, they would just need to be placed in three dimensions rather than two. What I mean is, in A2, it didn't matter how high up or down you moved the build ghost, it still worked off of the same footprint layer as the other stations; even if you tried to build a turret fifty turret-lengths above another it wouldn't work because the original devs never thought about 3D construction. Stations would need to be built on a three-dimensional grid rather than a two dimensional one or the grid would have to be disposed with entirely and simply be based on whether or not the structures were touching.

The other thing about implementing 3D space in the A2 engine is that the camera needs to be more free form and it needs to be easier to move, not the stock 'mouse wheel changes zoom, a couple buttons on the keyboard rotate'. It should also be in no way bound to a 2D plane the way the stock camera is.

The last thing is that the mini-map needs to be changed so that you can determine elevation. Maybe an isometric map or a full 3D map.

If the FO devs can do all that, then they can fix the issues that stock had with 3D space and I will gladly play FO that way. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth it.