Ability Refitting.

posted on June 19th, 2010, 5:54 pm

Recently I overheard a conversation on Tunggle about why only the Monsoon gets proximity torpedo (in-universe explanation.) I came up with an interesting idea.

What if, Monsoons could be refitted to use Tricobalt torpedoes and Intrepids could be refitted to use proximity torpedoes?
Basically, after u have the ability researched, you could research an ability refit that would give that ability to certain other ships. The proximity torp and Tricobalt would of course be mutually exclusive (using the same extra launcher, no room to add launchers without completely changing the ship's design) so that only one can be on either class.
Another refit to research might be to replace all photon launchers with quantum launchers (which would be very expensive and likely take a full 6.5 minutes to research.)
The Klingons could add heavy disruptors/torpedo drones to certain ships using an ability refit of theirs (which might mean no Polaron torps for Vor'chas.) Also maybe shield-breaking torpedoes on K'BeajQ (but no heavy disruptor/torpedo drone.)
Maybe Romulans might want Metaphasic disruptors on ships beside the Leahval, or Stealth Field on their Rhienns instead of Phase Plates.

Already-built ships would be unaffected, but newly produced ships would; Romulans would be the one exception, they could do the ability like a normal refit (but it would take some time, during which the refitting ship is idle.) The research costs and times would also be rather high to prevent major balance problems, the more ships affected, the more expensive and slower the research.

In this way, you could somewhat customize your fleets to meet different tasks better.
It would cost half the upgrade cost (and a third of the upgrade time) to reverse the effects, in case you wanted those proximity torps back on your Monsoons or need the Torpedo drone back on your K'BeajQ.

This is similar to Borg Collective Features I know, but it would cost resources, take a long time (Feds and such aren't as good at refitting whole fleets quickly as the Borg are.), and not affect every ship (the Tricobalt torps would only be added to Monsoons.) I also don't think there should be a cap like with Collective Features.

posted on June 19th, 2010, 5:59 pm

In a game ships are designed to have specific tasks - that is why an in game explanation will have most vessels have unique weaponry and special weapons . An in universe explanation would go along the same lines, as all militaries use specialized weapons and vehicles - not completely multifunctional  (due to expense and strategic use).

Maybe that would be reasonable for the Ciadan since they have no sense of economy

posted on June 19th, 2010, 6:10 pm

That's one reason it would have to be high cost, long research time, and only affects certain units. It would only be an option to change the roles of units if you're willing to tie up your research station, delay production due to the high cost, and sacrifice the existing role of the ships you're refitting.

[Tyler]

posted on June 19th, 2010, 6:15 pm

Last edited by Tyler on June 19th, 2010, 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It might work on the Federation, since multi-purpose ships are common for them. Maybe limit it to specific Classes, such as the Galaxy? Since those are unfinished with a lot of empty space for exactly this purpose.

posted on June 19th, 2010, 6:24 pm

It might work on the Federation, since multi-purpose ships are common for them. Maybe limit it to specific Classes, such as the Galaxy? Since those are unfinished with a lot of empty space for exactly this purpose.

I'd rather it be available in some form to every non-borg race (well, maybe not Dominion either they seem to be really bad at new ship designs judging by their prototype system), otherwise the Feds might get super unbalanced like I heard they used to be. Feds would probably be better at it, as it would suit their generalist nature quite nicely.

posted on June 19th, 2010, 7:44 pm

Ability refitting as in swabbing them doesn't sound like a good idea since every vessel has a specific task.

I admit that i would gladly trade the tricobalt for a burst fire medium/long range photon torpedo, but it would be difficult to maintain balance.

However it would be nice to refit vessels with new passive abilities, but those abilities would have to be applied in a specialized shipyard.

E.g. research backup shield generator (reduces chance of shield failure), send Intrepid to refit station and have the backup shield generator installed.

This would give players the option to add variation within ship classes and possibly surprise their opponents.

With these passive abilities one can think of shield enhancement (against borg boarding), engine upgrades, sensor upgrades etc.

posted on June 19th, 2010, 8:27 pm

I repeat myself yet again, it costs a lot and takes a long time to research. That's the balancing thing. I'm sure if you make it difficult enuff to get those porximity torp Intrepids then it wouldn't be a problem. It would essentially let the opponent outproduce you for a time because you decided you wanted a different Intrepid special weapon much later instead of ships right now.

posted on June 19th, 2010, 10:39 pm

Doesn't change the fact that each vessel has a specific task with strengths and weaknesses.

Let's take a look at the Intrepid which you mentioned. It has the Autonomous Defense AI special ability.

Autonomous Defense AI: This vessel is equipped with a special computer core that allows it to remodulate weapon and shield systems while in battle to optimize defense against standard vessels at medium range (by 30%). Those computer cores are quite expensive, and therefore the supply cost of this vessel is increased. The AI also seems to be less effective against non-regular starships like support vessels (deals 61% less and receives 24% more).

I've bolted which is relevant w.i. the Intrepid's weakness. Add a torpedo special to that and you don't need other vessels anymore. The Intrepid is fast, can take out vessels fast thereby gaining veteran status and defense boosts.

No amount of cost/ research time can compensate for the creation of a Janeway variant of the Intrepid. One has to look at the amount of time/research needed for all the vessels with the refitted Intrepid will replace.

But switching the specials is a bad idea. Research and refit of passive abilities for individual vessels may be interesting though, but with that it is also imperative to look at balance and the impact of individual upgrades.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on June 19th, 2010, 11:08 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on June 19th, 2010, 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's not a "Janeway variant" (what is a Janeway Variant anyways?) If you mean a super-Intrepid, I assure you it wouldn't be.
It wouldn't be an OP ship, just less effective against Borg and more effective against small sized ships than what it is without refit. You seem to be suggesting that proximity torpedoes would negate the support ship counter. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, especially since most support ships are medium-sized (normal torps hit often), and thus the proximity torpedo wouldn't be as effective.

The Intrepid would indeed be more powerful against small, early-game Destroyers, but the research would take a while (meanwhile you could just get chassis 2 and get the more resource efficient and more powerful Akira), and thus there's the question: Why not just build Monsoons or Akiras? Monsoons also have a special passive that has even less of a weakness (takes somewhat more damage from short-range ships), Monsoons already have proximity torpedo, and Monsoons get an enormous defense with Vet rank. So basically, the problem your saying would happen with refitted Intrepids, would already happen with Monsoons, that don't need any refitting.
Akiras have the ability to suddenly recharge shields faster in the middle of battle, and they're a generalist. If you can micro an Akira fleet, it can be near unstoppable by anything but its counters or a far larger fleet.

Your passive refitting sounds like an interesting idea, but it would be far more unbalancing than ability refitting (roles are mostly set by passives, the only unit abilities that strongly dictate unit roles the way passives do are support specials, which I do not want to see as part of ability refitting if it's implemented.)

posted on June 20th, 2010, 4:45 pm

With a Janeway intrepid i meant an OP Intrepid, something like an Intrepid with endgame armor and an endless supply of shield breaking torpedo's.

Give proximity Torpedo's to the intrepid which has more special energy and you effectively double it's firepower. Effective against everything (including the borg) and fast enough to escape.

As for the comment about my suggestion, the difference is that my suggestion is based upon refitting individual vessels at a specialized yard which by itself helps maintain balance.

Your suggestion for refitting specials would affect a whole class of vessels, still a bad idea in my opinion. It would be interesting to see what the developers think of these ideas though.

posted on June 20th, 2010, 7:07 pm

With a Janeway intrepid i meant an OP Intrepid, something like an Intrepid with endgame armor and an endless supply of shield breaking torpedo's.

Give proximity Torpedo's to the intrepid which has more special energy and you effectively double it's firepower. Effective against everything (including the borg) and fast enough to escape.

As for the comment about my suggestion, the difference is that my suggestion is based upon refitting individual vessels at a specialized yard which by itself helps maintain balance.

Your suggestion for refitting specials would affect a whole class of vessels, still a bad idea in my opinion. It would be interesting to see what the developers think of these ideas though.

Actually I've read about Borg Mixed-tech Intrepids getting a toned-down version of EndGame's ablative armor being planned for future patches. It will be balanced (and will definitely lack transphasic torps) of course.

My idea wouldn't put shield-breaking torps on Intrepids, but that would be cool for mixed tech Intrepid with Klingons  .

The special energy used could be adjusted to prevent multiple uses.

A special yard just for producing ability refits or passive refits? Quite a nice idea  .

I would love to hear Optec post his thoughts about this, but he has been unusally quiet recently.

[Andre27]

posted on June 20th, 2010, 7:19 pm

Last edited by Andre27 on June 20th, 2010, 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'd like to refit vessels with something that may surprise opponents expecting an easy kill.

E.g. a transport inhibitor passive ability on a monsoon. Borg assimilator expects to add a new ship to the borg fleet and finds it cannot transport to/from the targeted vessel

Edit: Mixed tech.. well that's a completely different discussion

posted on June 22nd, 2010, 5:46 pm

Two day bump to get some extra replies.