A Warbird Thread

posted on July 5th, 2011, 11:00 pm

Okay now you're just confusing me.  It sounds like you're trying to disagree with me somehow, but everything you say agrees with my original point: that the Cehlaer rush is not a very good idea.  That a Romulan player should never build Cehlaers unless he has smaller ships already.

you say brels dont counter cehlaers, i say they do

you say cehlaer rush sometimes is op, i say cehlaer rush is slow and has counters, so isnt a great idea.

quote:

The Cehlaer is overpowered in some situations and underpowered in others, based directly on what race you are facing, the size of the map, and the distance from your home base to your first expansion.  It is much easier to counter than B5 rush, OR it is much harder to counter than B5 rush depending on the circumstances.

you correctly identified fed and dominion counters, dominus pointed out the klingon counter, of brels, which led to the discussion of whether or not brels counter cehlaer.

I don't see any problem with battleships forming the backbone of a fleet.  They have their own advantages and disadvantages and there are plenty of anti-battleship counters in the game that don't get used often enough.  The Romulans are (at least in the Trek storyline) a race that prefers large ships as their backbone with smaller ships taking a supporting role.

i chalk that up to rubbish storytelling and lack of money to give the roms a proper fleet, so we got big d spam. also the rommies in the show probably only wanted the feds to see their best ships. it would be silly to spam only battleships.

When?  In what patch?  On which map?  I'm inclined to think that you're just saying this without an actual case in mind.

hey that's not nice, it sounds like you're trying to politely accuse me of being a liar. 

2 cases spring immediately to mind:

1v1 on latest duel II (whatever version it is ) facing a fedrat enemy. went with rhienns to tank and leahvals, then gens and griffins mixed in. difficult match to win as its hard to cut the legs out from a fed player who has even the slightest idea how to play feds. got monsoons in my face so many times. killed loads of warpins. in the end i just killed more of his exps than he killed of mine. i was playing bottom, my first exp was natural exp, up and to the right. put a second small yard there. after about 15 ships i went down bottom left as well, where i put my bird yard and made some eresis to deal with larger feddie ships, then made upgrade and got big D. would have eventually refitted what few rhienns i had left, but the game was over. its pretty rare to see big D in a 1v1 as they are high in the tech tree battleships. like sovvies (how often do you see them?).

1v1 on openfields facing a klink enemy, made small ships rhienns/leahvals/griffins etc then went for cehlaer then norexan. before the birds my enemy had a large fleet of smaller ships that i hadnt dealt with yet because i concentrated on raiding them a lot, and protecting my own exp.

posted on July 5th, 2011, 11:20 pm

Yeah, you guys are definitely missing his point.

Now, I just skimmed all this, because any more I feel like I can just skim skim skim, gloss gloss gloss, glance glance glance, and sum up everyone's points.

Tryptic is basically saying that he would like the Warbird yard to have a similar feel to other yards.  For example, the E-II and the T-15 are both great starter ships from their larger yard.  They are relatively cheap and are not a bad option for making into a backbone.  He wants something similar for the Warbird yard.  Who knows, you may get your wish in the redoes?

I personally like the feel for the romulans right now, as I feel that they should need both yards, otherwise everyone would be "warbird spamming".  You should at least have some rhienns with phase plates tanking while you build other ships.  And I'm fine with the ceahlear and eresis as they are, as you generally want to just make a few in the beginning, and then switch to some rhienns for tanking, then back to larger ships when you get the cash.  I think it would be boring if the roms were like the federation and dominion in this regard.  I like that all of their ships are expensive, but very potent.

I don't think the devs will introduce and "Old Big D" or anything, but they might come up with some cool new vessels instead.  Just look at the new generix models.  So you might get your wish, not specifically what you're asking, but something close to it.  You never know!

posted on July 5th, 2011, 11:32 pm

you obviously did skim, maybe even semi skimmed, i already said why i dont like his idea of having a rushable big D/eresis, as i dont think battleship rush/spam is a good thing.

e2/vorcha/t15/b5 are distinctly cruisers, they feel like cruisers. e2 feel more artillery as well.

its been said that romulans love specials, so maybe a support vessel could be added to the bird yard, a support bird, probably large in size although im sure it could get away with being medium , and with awesome specials. currently the feds have 3 supports to the romulans 2 (and a half for the singularity gen). maybe that support could be tied to talshiar, and the bird yard could require either research inst OR talshiar, so you only need 1 of the tech labs to get the bird yard. it would add more uses to talshiar, and give a strat whereby you make support birds with eresis/cehlaer. and after a while u can get a small yard and transition into singularity gens to give them even more energy as well. it would give a strategy that doesnt rely on research institute. you dont get leahvals or griffins this way, but you do get rhienns, shrikes and gens/singularity gens.

[Tryptic]

posted on July 6th, 2011, 12:06 am

Last edited by Tryptic on July 6th, 2011, 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Actually I think Mal has a point.  I hadn't thought about the other races having "generic starter ships" for their large yards, but they kind of do.  And yet, you have to admit that even those 2 ships are representative of their races.  The E2 is slow, long-range fire support while the T-15 is a powerful short-range counter.  And Myles is right, they both feel like cruisers.  The problem is that the Romulans already feel like they're building small numbers of cruisers from their Staryard, to fight enemy destroyers.  When the enemy upgrades to cruisers, we need to upgrade as well...to more cruisers?  That's no fun.

There's a difference between a ship having a battleship tag and filling a battleship role.  The Eresis is definitely a cruiser-role ship despite its battleship tag, and it allows players to augment their existing fast fleets without slowing them down.  The Cehlaer, on the other hand, can't keep up.

The Federation has the clearest distinction between its fast ships and its slow ships, and we can see from its example how their roles are different.  Fast ships can be built in any number and still be effective, but slow ships are only really useful when there are a lot of them.  The fed warpin allows them to quickly put together a slow fed-roll and not have to worry about that period of vulnerability.  The Romulans, on the other hand, don't especially have a slow fleet until they reach Warbirds which makes the first few warbirds vulnerable until you can get enough of them.  Rather than augment your fleet, I feel like having 1 or 2 warbirds pins down the rest of your fleet as those ships are no longer free to raid if you want to use the warbird in battle.

So I propose an easier-to-get D'Deridex so that players have the option of getting a slower Generix/warbird fleet that can survive without their faster ships around to baby it.  The easiest solution by far is to make the Staryard a prerequisite for the Warbird yard and cut the cost of Cehlaer/D'Deridex by 200 dilithium each, but that would be making them more like the other races.  If it's a choice between the two, I would rather they receive a more generic "large yard starter-ship" than the other races... wait.

I just had an idea.  A very strange idea.  Kind of a weird idea.  Possibly a freaking awesome idea.

--------------------------------

What if the Warbird yard could build every ship the Staryard can build, but for +50% supply or something?

This way the Romulans could start out with a warbird yard without being forced to rush, get one or two warbirds with smaller ships to support them, but still be unable to create a full fleet without either getting a staryard or spending all their supply.  Naturally the avatar bonuses would need to be rearranged a bit...

Also the Warbird yard would still be up 90 seconds later than a Staryard could be, and it would be unable to build any Tal'Shiar Academy-dependent ships or warbirds until the player paid for that.  Maybe take those ships out along with the avatar ships so it can only build Rhienns, Generix, and Leahvals.  Then the "advanced" warbirds would still take a lot of teching up to reach, but the "simple" warbirds could be built if the player saves up enough to get them.

What do you guys think of something like this?

posted on July 6th, 2011, 1:18 am

Actually I think Mal has a point.

Yeah, I have a point!   Wait, what is it?

I dunno what it was.  But I think you are right about having a support ship up in the warbird yard.  It doesn't have one and it should.

I'm not really down with the easier-to-get D'deridex idea Tryptic, because it would basically feel like the cruisers we were talking about, yes? 

When the enemy upgrades to cruisers, we need to upgrade as well...to more cruisers?  That's no fun.

This is where the refits come in.  The role of the vessel you had can change into something else, and have better stats and whatnot.  Instead of more numbers, existing romulan ships just get stronger and more capable of downing enemy ships.  The new spectre is a good example.  It's not a beastly tank, but it will rip through monsoons and has a special that makes them immune to pulse fire for 10 important seconds.  You don't build a whole fleet of these, just enough to take out some small ships.  We'll end up seeing more refits along those same lines, and see a comeback of the disruptor rhienn and torpedo rhienn (<---especially this one), as their usefulness over other vessels will be evaluated so that all romulan ships have their own niche.

Economically, I think you should have your base vessels, then choose to either go refits, or put that refit money into the warbird yard and the buildings you need.  You have base vessels either way, with the refits or warbirds being your advanced units.  Early warbird starts are fun, but if your opponent is countering it, maybe you should (you are romulan after all ) see what another enemy is doing.  You may have to switch dance partners with your teammate while you build something else.

If I may, I think people are facing a little "generix spam withdrawal".  Frigates and spectres and supports did everything you would ever want.  There was no need to do anything after you built those ships.  Now you have to use the other tech tree, which is still totally viable, but required more thought.  They'll start adding in more goodies as they get them ready and fleshing out the tal'shiar tree again.  But the days of just spamming one or two vessels ftw are over.  Eventually that should end up being the case for all the races.

posted on July 6th, 2011, 3:01 am

I meant you had a point about how the other races already have "large yard starter ships" and didn't want the D'Deridex to become like that.  Still, there's nothing wrong with using a proven system.

I thought about the refits right after I said that.  They do make warbirds feel a bit unnecessary, which I think is why warbirds don't get used much.

I actually strongly disagree about getting a support warbird.  I like the way the existing warbird specials complement a fleet: you don't have one support ship, your entire fleet is a support ship.  Other than the D'Deridex special which I feel is still underpowered, the fancy stuns and damage are already there.

As we get more and more people playing the game better and better, we're starting to see games that really hinge on ship production.  Once your basic infrastructure is up, you start cranking out ships at full speed because whoever has more ships has a pretty big advantage.  If you stop to expand or tech up, you're vulnerable for a while and whatever you get in return must be worth it.  That means delivering a higher ratio of stats/cost.

So while I see refitting as a good way to extend the life of your fleet (Once the enemy reaches the critical mass they need to kill your ships before they can cloak, you're done.  Refitted ships force your enemy to get a higher number of ships for that critical mass), it does NOT count as teching up in my book.  For example, a Helev D-Rhienn has the exact same ratio as a regular Rhienn.  Yes it becomes more effective, but that simply makes up for the fact that other races lose ships and build better ones for the same amount of money.  A true tech-up should result in ships that are a better deal, and that means warbirds.

The Romulan Staryard lineup is more geared toward raiding than fleet combat.  Any head-to-head confrontation will start to show that you are using raiding ships for a role they weren't designed for.  So yes, I do want to see something similar to the old Generix (although not as spammable, like the new Gen).  We need more fleet ships.

posted on July 6th, 2011, 9:19 am

Hmm, interesting discussion. Let me see if I can throw something in. First of all, against a warbird strat B'rels are better than against any other Romulan strat. If you don't use B'rels against warbirds, then never use them.

I must say I like the idea of a Romulan fleet consisting of Battleships only. As we have seen during the last two movies, Romulans seem to regard battleships as cruisers. If they want battleships, they build something REAL big, like the Narada refit or the Scimitar. Backgroundwise I think a large ship spam totally fits them. they got a rather small empire, don't seem to expand that much anymore. Consequently they use some large ships to frighten o enemies and defend their borders at strategic points.

The problem I see with warbrids is just that the smaller ships are already very useful and have the costs of the battleships of other races. Why build a slow, large warbird when you can get a fast, small D/TRhienn for 200dil less? A mid game answer to Klingons is not a Norexan but a Spectre, since it's especially designed for that part, cheaper and easier available. While B'Rels, Monsoons and S2s can easily outmanouver and slaughter warbirds, they'll get hit hard by Leahvals/Griffins/Rhienns. Warbirds are nice against the late game ships of other races, therefore they are useful if you use similar strats like the other factions(as Myles described them). I consider that a bit boring, it would be cool to see a unique, useful Romulan warbird strat. A Norexan is a decent counter to many early game ships, making it easier available could make the whole warbird yard more attractive imo. However, that should be combined with an increase to the costs of the multipurpose disruptor, snce that special is one of the strongest in FO and should stay hidden somewhere at the end of the tech tree.

posted on July 6th, 2011, 10:52 am

base gens are not raiding ships , and if u provide tanking for them and position them well they can be good in fleet combat. their special is cheap and useful too.

griffins make good backbone ships as well. especially since having more than 1 of them makes it so much easier to cloak and run using sensor jammer.

romulans are at a disadvantage in fleet to fleet battles due to the fact that they are balanced keeping 2 second cloaks in mind, less numbers and 10% less damage after a while. a current way to deal with that is to never stay in battle when the 10% less damage comes in, just kill 1 ship, cloak and run. and if they follow, lead them to a place where you have the advantage, like a yard.

once we see the talshiar building become more attractive then we will see more singularity gens, and they really increase your fleet's ability to fight fleet to fleet battles later in the game. they can do shield recharge on your fleet, whether you choose to use that in battle to extend your staying power for a few more seconds, or leave cloaked ships near the enemy base, recharge them and then attack again almost immediately is up to you.

right now im not exactly sure where to fit a singularity gen in. the 600/300 for talshiar is a big cost to add to the 600/300 for research inst. you cant really afford to go talshiar until you have your exp up. i personally prefer a yard at my exp instead of talshiar. but singularity gens could very well serve a similar purpose to a yard, keeping your fleet ready to fight, but anywhere on the map.

maybe if i wanted norexans/specific specials i would build talshiar.

posted on July 6th, 2011, 11:00 am

I played a lot of games and in 90 perc of cases warbird  rush failed from what i have seen, and i play mostly team games. So that means that people can counter it. Dom pointed out counters and you all discused weaknesses. In team games there are so many factors to consider that they are probably unbalanced at very start. Yes, size of the map is important. We all know how much romulans miners are weak and rushing for big stuff can be punished severly, if you are coordinated with your teammates. He will get warbids but his miners will die. Not even a proxy yard will save them. And if he has no miners, less warbirds. No critical numbers. If you dont raid romulan properly early game you failed, because that strategy begs for it. Every team game i play with clint, butters and others we try to put romulan in the back cos of the mining. Ofcourse  shape of the map comes into consideration also. Once he gets enough caehlars it can get tough, because they dont miss and still have damage of a battleship. So your oponent teched up sucesfully and that payed of. His pure numbers are making your micromanagment imposible. You failed!
Yes brels are the techical counter, you can even triple yard them, they will just eat warbirds, u may loose a few but you will win, laehvals counter all the warbirds in some way, and he may build bigD or norexan laters. But in team games, you allways have to consider who is tanking for who, and brels tank for most other stuff. So they could be destroyed by ships from the other oponent, and than warbirds clear out the rest. Than comes manual targeting in to consideration. If you let your brels target the lowest defensive value ship it can be a mistake that cost you the game. Sometimes its wise to target the big ships first. This is just an example. And team games are much more about picking battles and coordinating with your allies and knowing your oponent weaknesses and strenghts. People dont realize it. If you are good at it than you win team games, and that is what comes with online experience, while some people just theorize what should be done and how should be played, (but can it be pulled of?) and i see them online once every 2 months.
And when facing rhiens with brels! They activated phase plates, im gona die. oh no . Thats only 30 seconds , are you forced to be there? Cant you just retreat? 140 speed, vs 120 speed, cloak also avaliable.  They use most of their special energy  for phase plates. So once it wears off you come back and engage. TRY IT! Cos on smaller maps you can be back quite fast. And than rhiens die. Thats why experienced players build sing transmiters at expans near yards, when building rhiens. So they get special energy back fast. They dont even put turets. So as a counter to that we have an aditional 30 second cooldown on phase plates in the last patch. So you must use that time gap.

posted on July 6th, 2011, 3:18 pm

I agree with you on thost part, but not on the last one timmy . I've tried B'rels against Rhienns quite often. In groups, with KBQ, with KTingas, with weapon fatigue, with Kvorts...
30seconds is a very long time for a ship that has 4second cloak and loses its shields against 3rhienns immediately. You can get kills in the very beginning. One Rhienn(or two) come along, you have a Brels and a KBQ - you can make them retreat and if the map is large enough 30seconds will be over before they reach their base so you may kill them. But that's a very special situation and an experienced Rom player won't attack with one or 2 Rhienns. he'll wait until he slaughters your B'Rels with the first volley(3-5rhienns). Of course, you can evade this by keeping B'rels in the back. However, you'll need to be able to make the Romulans flee with only a part of your fleet against their whole fleet, which is quite hard since you keep your real counters in the back...

However, this is a thread about warbirds. What i describe just shows that a Rhienn is more useful against a B'rel than a warbird is, which got no counter or doesn't hit.