Some Numbers in Comparison!!!
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posted on February 17th, 2010, 5:36 am
Last edited by Boggz on February 17th, 2010, 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well here goes:
I know that the "numbers" are correct in the formulae for the vessel's passives and values. BTW, I'm TOTALLY impressed that you guys have created your own programs to keep things all level'd out.
WARNING! Math-craft!
However I've been going over some of the numbers in the ship ODF's for hull values in comparison to passives that may lower them. I'd like to say specifically in regards to the Breen that the passive's liability does not actually cause any kind of detrimental affect.
Breen Cruiser Passive: "Increased damage to Medium-ranged vessels, however the subsystems hp values are reduced to increase vulnerability"
NOTE: Breen inherently have weaker shields that are made up for (defensive value-wise) by correspondingly stronger hulls and subsystem hp. Their Hull/Shields value are 50% / 50%.
Breen Cruisers (Def- 20)
55hp per subsystem is the value AFTER the supposedly weakened subsystems due to the passive. As a comparison, here are some values for other commonly used vessels of a similar purpose:
Intrepid:
Risner (Def- 20)
Kvort: (Def- 20)
Galaxy: (Def- 35)
Ok ... so if we take into account the fact that all ships have a 71% chance of having their hulls hit vs. other subsystems, we can effectively add 29% of the total system value to the actual hull itself (as those are the hp that will be lost in systems and not directly kill the ship). These numbers aren't perfect but are as close to relevant as they need to be. THUS: we get a total value before a ship will die. Gonna have to get out my fancy calculator for this....
TOTAL VALUES:
These are the total values in terms of damage points that a ship SHOULD take before it dies.
20 Def Breen Cruiser : 530.3
20 Def Kvort: 489.7
20 Def Intrepid (Ris): 490.05
23 Def Intrepid (May): 610.3
35 Def Galaxy: 916.3
Most of it seems about right! The total hp value of a ship goes up correctly except with the Breen Cruiser. Now ... keep in mind folks that since the Breen have 50% shields and 50% hull, their hull is and subsystems are going to start taking hits sooner, but in practice this amounts to little as the damage is spread out widely over those subsystems. The affect of that spreading is greater against smaller vessels with weapons that will not completely disable a subsystem on the first hit (in fact only battleships will be able to do that). Each time a subsystem takes a hit but is not disabled the total % of how much of the subsystem's hp is added to the total value increases. Woof! That's a lot of words, but it's true. This is why in practice we never manage to ACTUALLY disable subs on Breen ships and why they take FOREVER to kill. The more strikes their subsystems takes without being disabled, the more total hp the Breen ship ends up having in practice. This is something that numbers on paper may not agree with, but practice in games shows.
This problem is further compounded by two things:
Thus the Breen Cruiser can cloak without fear of losing subsystems due to an exceptionally strong hull absorbing 71% of impacts and high subsystems shrugging off the rest. They are considerably stronger than a KbeajQ in this regard - a ship prized for it's high subsystem values.
This means that the Breen Cruiser has an excellent passive against 50% of the vessels in FleetOps (medium ranged) and essentially no liability. It's torpedoes do extra damage to small and medium sized vessels on top of that, and the engine upgrades return it to it's kiting days from 3.0.7.
Just for fun let's do the KbeajQ as well:
KbeajQ
Def- 19 (with extra strong susbsystems)
Thus: 420hp is out total after factoring in the 29% subsystem absorbtion.
420 at 19 Defense vs. 530 at 20 ...
My whole point with this ... is to illustrate with numbers why certain ships are spammed. I mean I know Optec has a VERY impressive formula laid out for assuring that things stay balanced and I could not be more greatful that it's been used to make this mod so awesome, but number's or not there is a reason why Breen Cruisers are still spammed and still annihilate everything. This is a fact. It happens all the time online and can only be beaten by having multiple players engage only the Breen without their teammate's support or by tricking them into a Hyperspace or something. Not really a practical solution.
[tt] The real problem are the passives dealing with Medium Range. All of the ships with Medium-range based passives are the ones that get spammed and have no counter.[/tt]
K'vorts:
Extra to Medium, weakened subsystems (ok, that's clear that they really DO have weakened subs, but that doesn't matter if you blow away your opponent before your shields drop). Fast enough to escape before much damage is done anyway.
Intrepid:
Less damage from medium ranged vessels for increased supply. 14 supplies for an Intrepid vs. 10 for a Monsoon and 16 for an Akira. It's not even a noticeable difference given that Feds have such tiny supply costs for their vessels anyway. They are fast, hit hard, can escape before they die, and have a tremendous special.
Don't even get me started on the Breen Battleship: 126hp per subsystem and 538 per shields/hull. They just don't die! We all know that! They don't get spammed in normal maps anymore because spamming Cruisers is so much easier and the Batt's are slooooooooooooow.
EDIT: Made it all a little cleaner
I know that the "numbers" are correct in the formulae for the vessel's passives and values. BTW, I'm TOTALLY impressed that you guys have created your own programs to keep things all level'd out.
WARNING! Math-craft!
However I've been going over some of the numbers in the ship ODF's for hull values in comparison to passives that may lower them. I'd like to say specifically in regards to the Breen that the passive's liability does not actually cause any kind of detrimental affect.
Breen Cruiser Passive: "Increased damage to Medium-ranged vessels, however the subsystems hp values are reduced to increase vulnerability"
NOTE: Breen inherently have weaker shields that are made up for (defensive value-wise) by correspondingly stronger hulls and subsystem hp. Their Hull/Shields value are 50% / 50%.
Breen Cruisers (Def- 20)
- Shield Strength: 226hp
- Hull Strength: 226hp
- Subsystems: 55hp each (total 275hp)
55hp per subsystem is the value AFTER the supposedly weakened subsystems due to the passive. As a comparison, here are some values for other commonly used vessels of a similar purpose:
Intrepid:
Risner (Def- 20)
- Shield: 345
- Hull: 103
- Subsystems: 29 (total-145)
- Shield: 424
- Hull: 137
- Subsystems: 34 (total-170)
Kvort: (Def- 20)
- Shield: 324
- Hull: 128
- Subsystems: 26 (total-130)
Galaxy: (Def- 35)
- Shield: 645
- Hull: 193
- Subsystems: 54 (total-270)
Ok ... so if we take into account the fact that all ships have a 71% chance of having their hulls hit vs. other subsystems, we can effectively add 29% of the total system value to the actual hull itself (as those are the hp that will be lost in systems and not directly kill the ship). These numbers aren't perfect but are as close to relevant as they need to be. THUS: we get a total value before a ship will die. Gonna have to get out my fancy calculator for this....
TOTAL VALUES:
These are the total values in terms of damage points that a ship SHOULD take before it dies.
20 Def Breen Cruiser : 530.3
20 Def Kvort: 489.7
20 Def Intrepid (Ris): 490.05
23 Def Intrepid (May): 610.3
35 Def Galaxy: 916.3
Most of it seems about right! The total hp value of a ship goes up correctly except with the Breen Cruiser. Now ... keep in mind folks that since the Breen have 50% shields and 50% hull, their hull is and subsystems are going to start taking hits sooner, but in practice this amounts to little as the damage is spread out widely over those subsystems. The affect of that spreading is greater against smaller vessels with weapons that will not completely disable a subsystem on the first hit (in fact only battleships will be able to do that). Each time a subsystem takes a hit but is not disabled the total % of how much of the subsystem's hp is added to the total value increases. Woof! That's a lot of words, but it's true. This is why in practice we never manage to ACTUALLY disable subs on Breen ships and why they take FOREVER to kill. The more strikes their subsystems takes without being disabled, the more total hp the Breen ship ends up having in practice. This is something that numbers on paper may not agree with, but practice in games shows.
This problem is further compounded by two things:
- Cloak
- The Breen Passive's liability is not, in fact, a liability.
Thus the Breen Cruiser can cloak without fear of losing subsystems due to an exceptionally strong hull absorbing 71% of impacts and high subsystems shrugging off the rest. They are considerably stronger than a KbeajQ in this regard - a ship prized for it's high subsystem values.
This means that the Breen Cruiser has an excellent passive against 50% of the vessels in FleetOps (medium ranged) and essentially no liability. It's torpedoes do extra damage to small and medium sized vessels on top of that, and the engine upgrades return it to it's kiting days from 3.0.7.
Just for fun let's do the KbeajQ as well:
KbeajQ
Def- 19 (with extra strong susbsystems)
- Hull: 119hp
- Shields: 301hp
- Subsystems: 66hp each (330 total)
Thus: 420hp is out total after factoring in the 29% subsystem absorbtion.
420 at 19 Defense vs. 530 at 20 ...
My whole point with this ... is to illustrate with numbers why certain ships are spammed. I mean I know Optec has a VERY impressive formula laid out for assuring that things stay balanced and I could not be more greatful that it's been used to make this mod so awesome, but number's or not there is a reason why Breen Cruisers are still spammed and still annihilate everything. This is a fact. It happens all the time online and can only be beaten by having multiple players engage only the Breen without their teammate's support or by tricking them into a Hyperspace or something. Not really a practical solution.
[tt] The real problem are the passives dealing with Medium Range. All of the ships with Medium-range based passives are the ones that get spammed and have no counter.[/tt]
K'vorts:
Extra to Medium, weakened subsystems (ok, that's clear that they really DO have weakened subs, but that doesn't matter if you blow away your opponent before your shields drop
). Fast enough to escape before much damage is done anyway.Intrepid:
Less damage from medium ranged vessels for increased supply. 14 supplies for an Intrepid vs. 10 for a Monsoon and 16 for an Akira. It's not even a noticeable difference given that Feds have such tiny supply costs for their vessels anyway. They are fast, hit hard, can escape before they die, and have a tremendous special.
Don't even get me started on the Breen Battleship: 126hp per subsystem and 538 per shields/hull. They just don't die! We all know that! They don't get spammed in normal maps anymore because spamming Cruisers is so much easier and the Batt's are slooooooooooooow.
EDIT: Made it all a little cleaner
posted on February 17th, 2010, 5:44 am
Really nice work, boggz! I really haven't seen the K'vort or Breen cruiser even have a problem with subsystems, my opponent is usually dead by the time they lose shields. Not really much of a downside to single staged energy colliders. 
posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:07 am
posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:30 am
posted on February 17th, 2010, 10:31 am
the spam factor was not the subsystem hitpoints, its the movement speeds and some smaller bugs.
but the passives have been adjusted either way. everything is in balance
but the passives have been adjusted either way. everything is in balance
posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:23 pm
Hmmm well you are right about that .
Maybe I was trying to point out that the liability given by it's passive (weaker subsystems) is kind of moot because Breen naturally have such strong subs.
.Maybe I was trying to point out that the liability given by it's passive (weaker subsystems) is kind of moot because Breen naturally have such strong subs
.posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:42 pm
Hmm...well the breen cruiser not only got actually slower, but relatively slower compared to other vessels, and it's still wiping ships out without any help from other ships. From what I understand the patch is coming out soon, it will definitely help fix things I'm sure.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 5:14 pm
posted on February 17th, 2010, 5:26 pm
*Facepalm* 
Yes, I know that it can be compensated with engine upgrades. You're missing the point, which was that the imbalance comes not from just the speed, but by passive abilities placement on certain easily spamable vessels. The engine upgrades merely exacerbate the issue that breen cruisers don't need other ships to support them, they are strong on their own, with basically no counters. At what point did I ever say they need to be compensated (which would imply that I thought they were underpowered?)
"Subcommander Soleta. Prepare a platoon of Rei'karansu Marines to board RedEyedRaven's brain and hack it."
"At once, Admiral Sela!"
Again, we'll see what the changes bring next patch. Things will either end up being fixed, or they'll still need tweaking and will be fixed the patch after that.
Yes, I know that it can be compensated with engine upgrades. You're missing the point, which was that the imbalance comes not from just the speed, but by passive abilities placement on certain easily spamable vessels.
The engine upgrades merely exacerbate the issue that breen cruisers don't need other ships to support them, they are strong on their own, with basically no counters. At what point did I ever say they need to be compensated (which would imply that I thought they were underpowered?) "Subcommander Soleta. Prepare a platoon of Rei'karansu Marines to board RedEyedRaven's brain and hack it."
"At once, Admiral Sela!"
Again, we'll see what the changes bring next patch. Things will either end up being fixed, or they'll still need tweaking and will be fixed the patch after that.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 5:56 pm
*Facepalm[sup]2[/sup]* 
Aye ya yae.... The Breen are supposed to be strong. The Cruisers are durable because the Breen are notorious for making stronger hulls, this is to be expected. The Torpedoes deal standard damage to equivalently leveled ships (Cruisers). Destroyers get a bit more punishment due to the properties of its weapon. But then this cruiser is easily countered by later game ships because they get reduced damage. Meaning that the combat effectiveness of this ship is inversely proportional to the length of its service because it is much less effective against battleships. This easily balances it out.
Now about the speed... the speed could get a step down without really nerfing it. It is a long range vessel making it not too badly effected by a speed reduction. A Speed reduction can easily suffice for its slight imbalance.
Aye ya yae.... The Breen are supposed to be strong. The Cruisers are durable because the Breen are notorious for making stronger hulls, this is to be expected. The Torpedoes deal standard damage to equivalently leveled ships (Cruisers). Destroyers get a bit more punishment due to the properties of its weapon. But then this cruiser is easily countered by later game ships because they get reduced damage. Meaning that the combat effectiveness of this ship is inversely proportional to the length of its service because it is much less effective against battleships. This easily balances it out.
Now about the speed... the speed could get a step down without really nerfing it. It is a long range vessel making it not too badly effected by a speed reduction. A Speed reduction can easily suffice for its slight imbalance.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:24 pm
Gamer, why are you posting false information? The Breen Cruiser does equal average damage to all ships, and is not easily countered later in the game. It has been stated and demonstrated with math multiple times. I know you know this because you read the forums. 
posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:27 pm
posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:30 pm
Mal wrote:Gamer, why are you posting false information? The Breen Cruiser does equal average damage to all ships, and is not easily countered later in the game. It has been stated and demonstrated with math multiple times. I know you know this because you read the forums.
Wait........................................... When did they stop doing more damage to smaller vessels? I thought the Breen Torpedoes always dealt increased damage to smaller ships and less to larger ships.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:37 pm
A better question to ask you, Gamer, is when did they start? Yes, they do more damage to destroyers, and they hit less often, too. If you do some math, you see that they do equal average damage to ships. We've known this for about 8 months, and it has been posted way more than once. It's even stated in the guide. Destroyers actually end up taking just a hair less damage compared to cruisers and battleships, if you follow the link.
I think the change should really help, Optec. Conduits! I knew I was getting the name wrong!
I think the change should really help, Optec. Conduits! I knew I was getting the name wrong!
posted on February 17th, 2010, 8:34 pm
Optec wrote:just to quote the 3.1.2 changelog:
Hey that's great that Single Stage is getting a better balance. I do still worry though that th issue is really the ships with these medium-range passive are too effective once they are out. Resource costs may not be the balance they actually need most
. I feel that it is really an issue of combat capabilities, not resources.These ships are spanned not because they are too cheap, but because they have no counter. Increasing their cost will not (in my opinion) keep them from being spanned because they will still be just as effective as before.
Might I suggest that Single Stage's liabilty be that it takes 10 or 15% increased damage from short AND Lon range vessels? That way it deals extra to medium and takes half that extra value from the other ranges. I.E. It can still own Medium range vessels like that's it's job, but other ranged vessels will all be slightly more effective.
I know it isn't as creative as lower subs or higher costs, but suddenly they have more soft counters. Suddeny spamming these all around excellent ships ( which will still be excellent ) will not always be a good choice. I highly suggest a change like this as two pairs of moons will easily render any resourc increase moot and the spamming will continue.
Perhaps the more creative passives could be reserved or vessels that are CLEARLY not useful to spam.
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