Ship/Station Build Times and Finite Resources

posted on June 17th, 2011, 9:58 am

I figure that it is possible to keep the game balanced with finite resources.  If the ship and station build times are doubled, or maybe ship build times doubled, station build times increased by 1.5x, then the finite resources will last longer because the average resource usage per second will be greatly lowered even though the income on a single pair of resources is the same.

Setting up your base will take longer and you'll be without a resource income for a longer period of time, but the required resource income will not be as high.  Players won't expand as quickly because they'll need to wait for their resource income to catch up to them.

PROS:
- You'll have slightly more time to scout the enemy to see what ships you should build.
- Resource Intensive strategies will not be as resource intensive because of the reduced income that is required.

CONS:
- Destroying miners will become even more critical at the start of the game as it'll take longer to get mining back up.
- Microing fleets will become even more critical as it'll take a lot more time to replace just one ship, let alone three or four.

posted on June 17th, 2011, 10:20 am

finite resources have a lot more influence on gameplay than just adjusting a few costs. It changes the whole gameplay, and we like the current gameplay 

posted on June 17th, 2011, 11:01 am

FO is already quite slow macro wise compared to other RTSs like Starcraft and Dawn of War. This would just kill it for a lot of players I think.

posted on June 17th, 2011, 11:13 am

FO is already quite slow macro wise compared to other RTSs like Starcraft and Dawn of War. This would just kill it for a lot of players I think.

agreed, this isnt a simulator, there are already several minutes at the start of setup, which i think is just about right for this game, any longer would be boring.

posted on June 17th, 2011, 11:27 am

Maybe at the beginning of the game it would be boring.  But it beats having the game over in 5 to 10 minutes as it would be on occasion.

posted on June 17th, 2011, 11:33 am

Maybe at the beginning of the game it would be boring.  But it beats having the game over in 5 to 10 minutes as it would be on occasion.

games rarely end that early. thats the first battle time, i can only recall this with me once, where my enemy had terrible bad luck and decloaked his brels on my rhienns which had energy for phase plates, which they used, then wiped out the handful of brels. hence ending the game.

most games last at least 15 minutes, up to around 2nd or 3rd battle.

posted on June 17th, 2011, 4:39 pm

FO is already quite slow macro wise compared to other RTSs like Starcraft and Dawn of War. This would just kill it for a lot of players I think.

Agreed.

Plus this would end in "one mistake, youre gone" matches. Especially for Dom / Fed in early stage this could be really annoying.

posted on June 17th, 2011, 4:47 pm

Good point.  Plus the Borg would be very resistant to those types of mistakes.

posted on June 23rd, 2011, 10:44 am

How about the OPTION of Finite Moons?
Like in the original Game. Usualy Finite Moons with some unlimited in every Map.

posted on June 23rd, 2011, 1:11 pm

I like that idea.

posted on June 23rd, 2011, 2:39 pm

How about the OPTION of Finite Moons?
Like in the original Game. Usualy Finite Moons with some unlimited in every Map.

Or another flavor would be a timer  for the Resourse moons  where after a set time  they would revert to  Finate  if  set to  that  mode in setup. Doing it that way would allow  one to get set up but make  your ships  even more valuable  after the InFinite moon timer ticks off.

posted on June 23rd, 2011, 4:54 pm

Or the possibility of 1 more more buildable buildings that generate resources over time?

posted on June 23rd, 2011, 5:11 pm

Borg already has that; the Recycler (for a supply cost) and the Freighter (with an upgrade).

posted on June 23rd, 2011, 8:41 pm

Too bad the Borg are only allowed one recycler.

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How about the OPTION of Finite Moons?

A2 had an option to force all resources to be infinite or to make resources finite/infinite based on individual ODF settings.  But Fleet Ops always makes resources finite/infinite based on individual ODF settings (all Fleet Ops resource ODF files are infinite anyways), but a mod could be made so that resource triggers have a certain probability of spawning an infinite resource.

Or another flavor would be a timer  for the Resourse moons where after a set time they would revert to Finate if set to  that mode in setup. Doing it that way would allow one to get set up but make your ships even more valuable after the InFinite moon timer ticks off.

I'm not sure about this one.  Because if an RTS_CFG configuration option is put in to re-enable the option to force all resources to be infinite, then the timer would have no affect as the "finite" resources would still be infinite because of game settings.  And it's basically the same as straight-forward finite resources.

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By the way, with finite resources on, the more miners that are destroyed, the less efficiently a resource can be utilized.  Say a resource looses a total of 10 miners over the course of the game averaging about 100 Dilithium each.  At the average mining rate of the freighters, that's around 3 minutes worth of resource income that just went to waste and the need to expand sooner.

Plus, with only one or two infinite resources per map, once all of the other resources run out, the winner is the team that secures the infinite resources first.  So a map with finite resources would need to have more resource pairs than a map with infinite resources.  Probably not for conventional 1vs1 or 2vs2, but some 3vs3 or larger, and especially free-for-alls would require tons of resources to be placed on the map.

That does however, give me an idea.  Finite moons could overlap each-other.  That could have interesting results and it would not require you to expand as quickly as you would already be at your expansion.  And that gives me an idea for some maps.  Hmm...  Opinions?

posted on June 26th, 2011, 8:09 pm

FO is already quite slow macro wise compared to other RTSs like Starcraft and Dawn of War. This would just kill it for a lot of players I think.

I disagree, a slow methodical game in which every ship is both powerful and important really fits well with star trek cannon. And Supreme Commander (one of the best rts's made) style matches in space seem like really great ideas. Just need bigger maps.