Romulan strenght in 310

posted on January 13th, 2010, 2:22 pm

I don't expect it to be a counterpart, but I think there should be a reason you can build rhienns at the beginning of the game.

[mimesot]

posted on January 13th, 2010, 2:28 pm

Last edited by mimesot on January 13th, 2010, 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Indeed!

posted on January 13th, 2010, 2:28 pm

The reason to build the Rhienn early?
Helev: Get one hell of A.S.A.P the research faculty and build a few Griffins and then the double amount of Rhienns. Support your Griffins with the Rhienns while using the sensor jammer wisely.
Mijural: Build more Shrikes than Rhienns, but don't forget the advantage of the longer weapon range. Get the research faculty and build Laehvals, but focus on getting the Tal'shiar academy as soon as possible in order to get Generix-frigates or better yet, Spectre-cruisers.

Get the hell on with accepting the romulans as a race that has to invest much before it can go into battle effectively.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 2:38 pm

Normally one can see if a ship is a late game ship if the power/price ratio gets better. As the price per stats is the worst for all no-science-vessels is is definitive a early game ship. On the other hand you tell us to build griffins first?

The old Mijural strategy is still valid and now even it's very early game is stronger than Helevs. IMO Helev's advantege is reduced to the cheapness of generixes.

I never used the rhienn as battleship lategame, but always as quickest ambusher to distract the enemy from my main offense.

As an escort i believe the rhienn is the first ship to be wiped out so an inefficient meatshield. I may be wrong about that, so please feel free to elaborate on this statement. as i said i didn't play much 310 yet.

[RedEyedRaven]

posted on January 13th, 2010, 3:08 pm

Last edited by RedEyedRaven on January 13th, 2010, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If playing Helev I would at least recommend to build Griffins first. As I said, the Rhienn makes a great escort for them.

And a single Rhienn is still stronger than a single Saber or a single B'Rel (at least Martok's one). It moves and fires slower now, but the Rhienn's pulse is dealing heavy damage in comparison to the mentioned destroyers (sure, the Shrike's pulse has more advantages due to the fact that it disables other destroyers weapons quite often, but I barely play Mijural).
But if only using Rhienns as early in game as possible for battle, I could only think of tactics like "cloak, get to enemy expansions, decloak, fire a few times, cloak again, repeat this until it gets too dangerous". And on that basis, the enemy will definately counter that at every given opportunity before you deal serious damage to his economy. You would be happy to get just one mining ship down by following that pointless strategy.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 6:28 pm

Hmm I guess I need to do some more testing but I'm still doubtful.

Btw the Generix is never an early game ship, you need a talshiar facility for it, but I cam see how griffins would be good as well as leahvals.

So with Helev you would always go with staryard and research facility together?

I'm gonna take a guess and say you haven't TRIED generix rush.  It even works against the Klingons now.  I'm on my iPhone at work so typing is hard.


Wait a few more days before writing off the Rommies.  Mal and I tested a number of strata last night found out somestuff that will surprise you all.  Give us a few days to smooth it out with Dom and we'll show you a WHOLE new way to play Rom.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 6:33 pm

Dex and I also found some cool things out (mainly Dex) against the Feds - so I have hope yet

posted on January 13th, 2010, 7:38 pm

I did not state at any given time romulans where unplayable.
I just said that there first ship, specially with Helev the Rihenn is not worth it's price. 400 dilithium for a slow only forward fiering ship. Sorry if it seems harsh but it's stats are not that great and with Martok I relay enjoyed hunting them. They are easy prey.

I just would like to have them more usable, viable. Leahval and Generixes are the real killer now for Helev. Also the Griffin lacks any passive ability, making it not the best main production ship, it's a good support ship for Warbirds and fleets.

And if you are wondering the Griffin was developed as the Akira to supplement fleets and large battleships.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 11:04 pm

I agree Dex that the Griffin should be a support.  And that's what it is!  Yay!

The backbones now should be generix at first (depending on your enemies) and then battleships supported by griffins, gens, and leahvals.  I think this patch is actually a big stepforward for the Romulans!  It will need some kinks worked out but should offer a much more interesing playstyle of cloak-strike-cloak like the Rommies should!

I do agree though that the basic Rhienn is only a liability until its refitted much later.  I have some in-depth ideas on how to change that with hangin ONLY the Rhienn as this new Rommie playstyle is quickly growing on me. 

posted on January 14th, 2010, 12:35 am

Sadly it just doesn't work that way. The units are nice, but without any passives to really back them up, they don't stand very long. We are ignoring all the first tier right now (Griffins, Rhienns, Shrike) and just going for the most cost efficient path (either tech to Frigate or tech to Leahval). No flexibility, and it seems that the Frigate method only works rarely against Klingons with a great deal of micromanagement on a 4 moon map - as Martok! TaQroja would beat Helev's lilly - err yeah - that much faster. Leahval only works against Risner Feds .

posted on January 14th, 2010, 4:40 am

Sadly it just doesn't work that way. The units are nice, but without any passives to really back them up, they don't stand very long. We are ignoring all the first tier right now (Griffins, Rhienns, Shrike) and just going for the most cost efficient path (either tech to Frigate or tech to Leahval). No flexibility, and it seems that the Frigate method only works rarely against Klingons with a great deal of micromanagement on a 4 moon map - as Martok! TaQroja would beat Helev's lilly - err yeah - that much faster. Leahval only works against Risner Feds .

  Well for sure the Rommies are in a poor position at the moment.  But I do think that this underdog spot has encouraged us to rethink how the Rommies should be building.  Certainly trying to tech to Gen refits slows them WAY down and provides little in the way of early game flexibility or movement, but the Frigate Refits are REALLY difficult for Taq to handle.  Granted, I was playing Mal and only then did we remember that Klingons have NO decloaking abilities at the moment, so any time I overpowered a frigate it would just cloak before I could finish it.  Only once I had enough KbeajQ to nuke it once it's shields were down was I able to do so.

  Clearly Mal is an excellent player with good micromanagement.  Many players are not of his skill level (don't let it go to your head, Mal)  .

  I think we should very serisouy look at how the Rommie playstyle works here though.  TRULY .. the Romulans now MUST rely on choosing when to engage battle and when to stay cloaked.  Rarely do I think a Romulan vessel should remain decloaked and skilled use of multiple wings makes a distinct difference now.

  SO ... while I agree that the Rommies have some problems now (the Rhienn ESPECIALLY), I feel they are on the right path, with just some minor tweaking and adjustments.  I suggest people continue to play them and see how they can use their stealth and cheap turrets to at the very least control engagements if not win games.

Thumbs up! 

posted on January 14th, 2010, 5:19 am

Why, Mal is an excellent player.  Thanks for saying so, Boggz!   (As it goes straight to my head )

Yeah, I was really optimistic from that game we played, but I played a few more with Dom that has made me less so. He instantly teched to K'vorts, and had me completely no matter what I did.  The difference between the game was whether b'rels were made or not.  Yes, frigates are very powerful against pulses, but in the game we played I was able to kill the brels, which were a fair portion of your fleet.

Against dom, he just moved his K'vorts away or cloaked them before I could destroy it.  And he could still out produce me, even while producing cruisers.  He was even Martok.   Leahvals seem better in some instances, but it's basically the same.  I'm always willing to do more testing, but the hard counters and lack of a useful 1st tier ship for the roms is really hurting them.

I'm hoping the next balancing patches will correct what we're seeing.  I think this patch was more useful in the other content it provided.  The interface is great, and looks amazing.  I thought I'd miss the cinematic window, but I don't.  And I love the health info by hovering over a ship.  Also, Avalons and the dominion fighter carrier are really nice.  I was very impressed by how fighters are handled.  It's a perfect solution.  They don't do tons of damage, but they do some; and the cumulative power of them is noticeable.  I think the team did a heck of a job with them.

And a job well done to Ziech for the galaxy model and bird of prey models.  Very beautiful.

posted on January 14th, 2010, 6:16 am

Excellent to hear!

  I agree that SOME of the hard counters now are a bit TOO hard ... so to speak.  As in some of the units in the game just get BONED ... HARD by other units.  It's actually funny because I feel that this latest patch has allowed the game to be overall configured around ships that can still win even if they are outmatched.  Skill, tactics, and strategy in this patch have finally come of age and can show themselves over direct counters better in this patch.

  Credit for that goes directly to Optec and Doca! 

  Thus this patch has got me very excited (maybe you've noticed) about a whoooole new way that we can approach the strategics of the game.  This clearly is going to make people upset at first because the old strategies will need reworking (and I assure you that Dom, Mal, and I are hard at work exploring the intricacies of this new patch with a gusto ).

  I think that if the Rommies lose some of their ship cost, get a more refined tier 1 ship, and bring their battleships closer to mid game they will be a completely new and powerful faction with unique gameplay!  Optec and Doca did a great job moving them to a new path.

posted on January 15th, 2010, 12:13 am

noted down

posted on January 15th, 2010, 12:17 am

noted down

Thank the heavens