Romulan Fed Mixed Leavhal
1, 2
posted on November 29th, 2009, 12:38 am
Last edited by Boggz on November 29th, 2009, 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's a beast.
So is Mort.
Dominus and I took a look at the Mixed Tech Leavhal (Fed one, dunno about the others). It destroys other vessels like that's it's job. We are wondering if this is a mistake, an oversight, or whether this vessel was put in just to make us cry.
What we found was the burstfire torpedoes do quite a bit of damage with or without the effect of Energy Reeling:
"romW_leahval_fed2" (Burstfire Torp without Energy Reeling)
classlabel = "cannonimp"
ordname = "romW_leahval_fed2o"
firesound = "romulan_torpedo.wav"
savefirecyclepoint = 8
shotcycleresettime = 15
shotdelay0 = 0.25
shotdelay1 = 0.25
shotdelay2 = 0.25
shotdelay3 = 3.45
shotdelay4 = 0.25
shotdelay5 = 0.25
shotdelay6 = 0.25
shotdelay7 = 4.65
shotdelay8 = 0.25
shotdelay9 = 0.25
shotdelay10 = 0.25
shotdelay11 = 5.85
hitchance = 1
"romW_leahval_fed2o" (Damage Specs for Burstfire Torpedo without ER Activated)
classlabel = "photontorpedo"
sprite = "wplasmatorpedo3"
radius = 6.0f
lightcolor = 0.0 1.0 0.0
lightfalloffstart = 50.0
lightfalloffrange = 50.0
lifespan = 6.0
omegaturn = 2.5
shotaccel = 70.0
seektime = 0.25
shotcolor = 227
spriteduration = 1.0
hitsound = "xhit_torpedo1.wav"
damagebase = 12.283
So stop me here if I'm barking up a dead tree, but that seems like a lotof damage right away given the fact that the Leahval Fed mix is supposed to have a DROP in Offensive value of 1. Dominus pointed out that the Fed-mix Leahval is 22/20/20 while the original is 23/18/18. Yet is has standard as weapon that does nearly 50 damage on it's opening volley with it's torpedoes alone. Granted there is the torpedo miss-rate, but we've found that to be ... not much recompense.
Now for the really exciting part: what happens when you add Energy Reeling to the mix and boost the Leahval's Offense by 30 and damage to Cruisers by 20%:
"romW_leahval_fedM2.odf" (Burstfire Torp with ER activated)
classlabel = "cannonimp"
ordname = "romW_leahval_fedM2o"
firesound = "romulan_torpedo.wav"
savefirecyclepoint = 8
shotcycleresettime = 15
shotdelay0 = 0.25
shotdelay1 = 0.25
shotdelay2 = 0.25
shotdelay3 = 3.45
shotdelay4 = 0.25
shotdelay5 = 0.25
shotdelay6 = 0.25
shotdelay7 = 4.65
shotdelay8 = 0.25
shotdelay9 = 0.25
shotdelay10 = 0.25
shotdelay11 = 5.85
hitchance = 1
Nothing wrong here. Simple burstfire torpedo.
Here's the ordinance odf:
"romW_leahval_fedM2o" (Damage for Burstfire Torp with ER Active)
classlabel = "photontorpedo"
sprite = "wplasmatorpedo3"
radius = 6.0f
lightcolor = 0.0 1.0 0.0
lightfalloffstart = 50.0
lightfalloffrange = 50.0
lifespan = 6.0
omegaturn = 2.5
shotaccel = 70.0
seektime = 0.25
shotcolor = 227
spriteduration = 1.0
hitsound = "xhit_torpedo1.wav"
damagebase = 29.664
Wheeeee! 29.6 damage PER TORPEDO is actually misleading as the specifics in the ODF (far too much to paste here) actually have it doing almost 36 to nearly every vessel out there including some non-cruisers. That's a burst of 4 torpedoes doing 29-36 damage per torpedo every 4 seconds. NOTE-- This figure does NOT include rankings NOR does it include the natural Beam weapon or Phase Disruptor which will religiously be used on opening combat.
Granted: it's build time is 101 seconds. VERY long. It's cost is significantly raised to 500+ di and 22 Supply, but in a team game (which is the only place it can be fielded) we've found that these things merely slow it down. They are game-enders in numbers not too high. I have watched Mort steamroll 6 other players in an Alliance-based FFA with about 3 full fleets worth. In a normal 2 v 2 though it is easily accessible once a modest fleet of Beam Rhienns is in place. Skipping supports and the Warbird yard (and easy choice for Helev) in favor of a couple Mixed Yards (800-200) and these monsters is a no-brainer.
Keep in mind, again - the Mixed Tech Leahval is supposed to get a -1 DROP in Offensive value. Instead it is given God's pinky finger in the butt in the form of burstfire torpedoes.
Heh ... just kinda made myself laff a little imagining God stick his pinky in someone's butt.
Anyway, there you have it.
So is Mort.
Dominus and I took a look at the Mixed Tech Leavhal (Fed one, dunno about the others). It destroys other vessels like that's it's job. We are wondering if this is a mistake, an oversight, or whether this vessel was put in just to make us cry.
What we found was the burstfire torpedoes do quite a bit of damage with or without the effect of Energy Reeling:
"romW_leahval_fed2" (Burstfire Torp without Energy Reeling)
classlabel = "cannonimp"
ordname = "romW_leahval_fed2o"
firesound = "romulan_torpedo.wav"
savefirecyclepoint = 8
shotcycleresettime = 15
shotdelay0 = 0.25
shotdelay1 = 0.25
shotdelay2 = 0.25
shotdelay3 = 3.45
shotdelay4 = 0.25
shotdelay5 = 0.25
shotdelay6 = 0.25
shotdelay7 = 4.65
shotdelay8 = 0.25
shotdelay9 = 0.25
shotdelay10 = 0.25
shotdelay11 = 5.85
hitchance = 1
"romW_leahval_fed2o" (Damage Specs for Burstfire Torpedo without ER Activated)
classlabel = "photontorpedo"
sprite = "wplasmatorpedo3"
radius = 6.0f
lightcolor = 0.0 1.0 0.0
lightfalloffstart = 50.0
lightfalloffrange = 50.0
lifespan = 6.0
omegaturn = 2.5
shotaccel = 70.0
seektime = 0.25
shotcolor = 227
spriteduration = 1.0
hitsound = "xhit_torpedo1.wav"
damagebase = 12.283
So stop me here if I'm barking up a dead tree, but that seems like a lotof damage right away given the fact that the Leahval Fed mix is supposed to have a DROP in Offensive value of 1. Dominus pointed out that the Fed-mix Leahval is 22/20/20 while the original is 23/18/18. Yet is has standard as weapon that does nearly 50 damage on it's opening volley with it's torpedoes alone. Granted there is the torpedo miss-rate, but we've found that to be ... not much recompense.
Now for the really exciting part: what happens when you add Energy Reeling to the mix and boost the Leahval's Offense by 30 and damage to Cruisers by 20%:
"romW_leahval_fedM2.odf" (Burstfire Torp with ER activated)
classlabel = "cannonimp"
ordname = "romW_leahval_fedM2o"
firesound = "romulan_torpedo.wav"
savefirecyclepoint = 8
shotcycleresettime = 15
shotdelay0 = 0.25
shotdelay1 = 0.25
shotdelay2 = 0.25
shotdelay3 = 3.45
shotdelay4 = 0.25
shotdelay5 = 0.25
shotdelay6 = 0.25
shotdelay7 = 4.65
shotdelay8 = 0.25
shotdelay9 = 0.25
shotdelay10 = 0.25
shotdelay11 = 5.85
hitchance = 1
Nothing wrong here. Simple burstfire torpedo.
Here's the ordinance odf:
"romW_leahval_fedM2o" (Damage for Burstfire Torp with ER Active)
classlabel = "photontorpedo"
sprite = "wplasmatorpedo3"
radius = 6.0f
lightcolor = 0.0 1.0 0.0
lightfalloffstart = 50.0
lightfalloffrange = 50.0
lifespan = 6.0
omegaturn = 2.5
shotaccel = 70.0
seektime = 0.25
shotcolor = 227
spriteduration = 1.0
hitsound = "xhit_torpedo1.wav"
damagebase = 29.664
Wheeeee! 29.6 damage PER TORPEDO is actually misleading as the specifics in the ODF (far too much to paste here) actually have it doing almost 36 to nearly every vessel out there including some non-cruisers. That's a burst of 4 torpedoes doing 29-36 damage per torpedo every 4 seconds. NOTE-- This figure does NOT include rankings NOR does it include the natural Beam weapon or Phase Disruptor which will religiously be used on opening combat.
Granted: it's build time is 101 seconds. VERY long. It's cost is significantly raised to 500+ di and 22 Supply, but in a team game (which is the only place it can be fielded) we've found that these things merely slow it down. They are game-enders in numbers not too high. I have watched Mort steamroll 6 other players in an Alliance-based FFA with about 3 full fleets worth. In a normal 2 v 2 though it is easily accessible once a modest fleet of Beam Rhienns is in place. Skipping supports and the Warbird yard (and easy choice for Helev) in favor of a couple Mixed Yards (800-200) and these monsters is a no-brainer.
Keep in mind, again - the Mixed Tech Leahval is supposed to get a -1 DROP in Offensive value. Instead it is given God's pinky finger in the butt in the form of burstfire torpedoes.
Heh ... just kinda made myself laff a little imagining God stick his pinky in someone's butt.
Anyway, there you have it.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 12:45 am
posted on November 29th, 2009, 12:58 am
I'll look into it. To be honest, those numbers don't scare me, because they're countered by a long reload time. It's like the breen cruiser. Each torpedo does 8.something per torpedo, but there are 5 in a volley. But who knows? They could very well be imbalanced. Dominion B5 Carrier, anyone? 
posted on November 29th, 2009, 1:10 am
Breen Cruiser has 3 to a volley, you tit 
The reload times really aren't that long. And keep in mind as well that the Leahval does almost all of it's damage RIGHT AWAY with the phase disruptor and an immediate Energy Reeling. Granted that time is not the Leahval's friend here, but going with the Rommie tactic of decloak on close range, experience has proven this little monster to be quite the headache.
Also - look into what happens to a structure when it's attacked by even 1 of these things with Energy Reeling activated.
The reload times really aren't that long. And keep in mind as well that the Leahval does almost all of it's damage RIGHT AWAY with the phase disruptor and an immediate Energy Reeling. Granted that time is not the Leahval's friend here, but going with the Rommie tactic of decloak on close range, experience has proven this little monster to be quite the headache.
Also - look into what happens to a structure when it's attacked by even 1 of these things with Energy Reeling activated.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 3:03 am
Breen Cruiser has 3 to a volley, you tit
The Breen Cruiser has 5 to a volley, you tat
Haven't delved into the odfs yet, I'll be doing that now.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 4:49 am
posted on November 29th, 2009, 5:17 am
They fire 2, then 3. These numbers are in percent of 1 second. That's why when you hear a breen cruiser fire, you get the doodoo, doodoodoo! sound. If you want to argue semantics with me, you could argue that they fire a "volley" of 2, then a "volley" of 3, even though the space inbetween these "volleys" is less than 1 second apart. It's a lot easier to just say there's 5 in one volley, since the odfs are set up with a shot cycle involving 5 torpedoes before a wait time of over 2 seconds before it resets.
As far as the Leahval is concerned, it seems you may be on to something. I took 6 helev lehavals and attacked my starbase, turning on energy reeling just before I attacked it, and timed how long it took to bring it to 50%. 15.8 seconds.
The Fed mixed tech leahvals took 9.2 seconds to do the same thing. I also looked into the odfs, but it's a whole bunch of numbers right now. I won't post them today, maybe tomorrow or the next day when I get them presentable. Numbers-wise it sort of looks ok. But that's not the experience I get in game. If you duel a normal lehaval and a mixed tech leahval, without energy reeling, the mixed tech one should destroy the normal one by the time its shields are down. That might be in part from the extra hit points it gets from the defensive value, but I don't know. I definitely think Optec should take a second look at it.
One question I have that would make a big difference is does switching the replace weapon leahval from doing advanced energy reeling reset the shot cycle for the ship? If it's firing its powerful torpedos using the early romulan shot cycles, then it makes quite a difference than if you fired a couple of times before switching and you were using the slower times. The dps very high those first volleys, but drops down to where I assume it "should be" once it reaches the later shotdelays.
As far as the Leahval is concerned, it seems you may be on to something. I took 6 helev lehavals and attacked my starbase, turning on energy reeling just before I attacked it, and timed how long it took to bring it to 50%. 15.8 seconds.
The Fed mixed tech leahvals took 9.2 seconds to do the same thing. I also looked into the odfs, but it's a whole bunch of numbers right now. I won't post them today, maybe tomorrow or the next day when I get them presentable. Numbers-wise it sort of looks ok. But that's not the experience I get in game. If you duel a normal lehaval and a mixed tech leahval, without energy reeling, the mixed tech one should destroy the normal one by the time its shields are down. That might be in part from the extra hit points it gets from the defensive value, but I don't know. I definitely think Optec should take a second look at it.
One question I have that would make a big difference is does switching the replace weapon leahval from doing advanced energy reeling reset the shot cycle for the ship? If it's firing its powerful torpedos using the early romulan shot cycles, then it makes quite a difference than if you fired a couple of times before switching and you were using the slower times. The dps very high those first volleys, but drops down to where I assume it "should be" once it reaches the later shotdelays.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 5:40 am
Mal wrote:I also looked into the odfs, but it's a whole bunch of numbers right now. I won't post them today, maybe tomorrow or the next day when I get them presentable. Numbers-wise it sort of looks ok.
You titty I posted the numbers. You don't have to post the entire list of specific vessels. It's just every cruiser and such that would take extra or less damage from torpedoes and those that have less of a hitchance.
Well ... maybe it's not so bad, but Dom and I were not thinking about an attack on a starbase. We were thinking about how quickly you could lose a key structure like a yard or a research facility. A Starbase may lose 50% in 9.2 seconds, but imagine another structure with a significantly decreased amount of hull and shield value.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 6:17 am
What's with you and titties today? 
Anyway, I see that I messed up when I was explaining. I'm not going to be simply copying and pasting the odfs. Any tit can do that.
What I am doing is dps calculations and vessel comparisons, to see just how powerful the mixed tech leahval is in comparison to the normal one from a numbers standpoint. As I've explained in other posts, it's possible to figure these values out to see why a vessel was stated to have the offensive value that it does. However, it's a lot harder to do with a race that has anywhere between 3-5 different shot delays, especially when Optec has never said how the romulan opening volleys affect the stats. I don't believe they changed from patch 3.5a to 3.7. But it's not really needed, because a simple in game test will tell you that the mixed tech leahval will ace its cousin.
Dom said it felt about 60% more powerful, and that sounds about right to me. 10 seconds is not a long time, and indeed another structure will probably be destroyed if a starbase takes that kind of whopping. Granted, it's supposed to do a lot of damage in that time, but it does so much more damage from the standard leahval that I think it's an oversight. Even without energy reeling, the damage the ship does is pretty incredible.
Anyway, I see that I messed up when I was explaining. I'm not going to be simply copying and pasting the odfs. Any tit can do that.
What I am doing is dps calculations and vessel comparisons, to see just how powerful the mixed tech leahval is in comparison to the normal one from a numbers standpoint. As I've explained in other posts, it's possible to figure these values out to see why a vessel was stated to have the offensive value that it does. However, it's a lot harder to do with a race that has anywhere between 3-5 different shot delays, especially when Optec has never said how the romulan opening volleys affect the stats. I don't believe they changed from patch 3.5a to 3.7. But it's not really needed, because a simple in game test will tell you that the mixed tech leahval will ace its cousin. Dom said it felt about 60% more powerful, and that sounds about right to me. 10 seconds is not a long time, and indeed another structure will probably be destroyed if a starbase takes that kind of whopping. Granted, it's supposed to do a lot of damage in that time, but it does so much more damage from the standard leahval that I think it's an oversight. Even without energy reeling, the damage the ship does is pretty incredible.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 7:31 am
Lol that was my whole point. Not to say that it's necessarily overpowered, but to point out that the stats are misleading. The Offensive value for the mixed Leahval is listed at 22 vs 23 on the standard when in fact it does a great deal MORE damage even without energy reeling. I never checked the Beam weaponry on the standard vs mixed but I can't imagine the difference is so much that it MORE than compensates for the torpedoes.
Feeling a little disagreeable aaaaare we, sir?
Feeling a little disagreeable aaaaare we, sir?
posted on November 29th, 2009, 9:28 am
I didn't realize I was being the disagreeable one. Weren't you the one arguing with me about breen cruiser volleys and whatnot when you're not sure how they work? 
But an apparent 60% increase in power really seems overpowered, that's been my point, and has been yours up until this last post! Observe:
The fact that it's so powerful is also what Dominus was talking to me about when he pm'ed me on the discussion you two had. So I assume that we're not talking about stats, but about the fact that it is overpowered. Again, you could be completely right about the stats being misleading. But the stats are just there to give a quick reference to the vessel's offensive strength. It does not and can not tell the whole story. In fact, there was a post not too long ago where someone thought that all the stats were misleading, just like how the Phalanx has a higher offensive value than a Sov, but get's its ass kicked in a duel between that ship. So I assume that we're more interested in why it's doing the same amount of damage in almost half the time as a helev leahval.
In any event, it's more likely that the stat itself is not misleading so much as this is a bug that needs to be looked into. Which brings me to the point I've been trying to explain if you'll let me.
It is entirely possible that through a fluke of math, the damage calculations that Optec used for this ship match the stat we see on the screen. That's what I've been working on.
What I am hypothesizing right now is that something about burst fire torpedoes did not get accounted for when the Romulans switched to the unique shot cycle system that all but one of their vessels use. Hopefully Optec can look at it and tell us whether or not there's a problem.
I've been agreeing with the main point from your original post, but it feels like you've been arguing with me the whole way. It's like you've gone all :wheelchair: on me. What's the deal? :kid:
Not to say that it's necessarily overpowered, but to point out that the stats are misleading.
But an apparent 60% increase in power really seems overpowered, that's been my point, and has been yours up until this last post!
Observe: Dominus and I took a look at the Mixed Tech Leavhal (Fed one, dunno about the others). It destroys other vessels like that's it's job. We are wondering if this is a mistake, an oversight, or whether this vessel was put in just to make us cry.
Granted: it's build time is 101 seconds. VERY long. It's cost is significantly raised to 500+ di and 22 Supply, but in a team game (which is the only place it can be fielded) we've found that these things merely slow it down. They are game-enders in numbers not too high. I have watched Mort steamroll 6 other players in an Alliance-based FFA with about 3 full fleets worth. In a normal 2 v 2 though it is easily accessible once a modest fleet of Beam Rhienns is in place. Skipping supports and the Warbird yard (and easy choice for Helev) in favor of a couple Mixed Yards (800-200) and these monsters is a no-brainer.
The fact that it's so powerful is also what Dominus was talking to me about when he pm'ed me on the discussion you two had. So I assume that we're not talking about stats, but about the fact that it is overpowered. Again, you could be completely right about the stats being misleading. But the stats are just there to give a quick reference to the vessel's offensive strength. It does not and can not tell the whole story. In fact, there was a post not too long ago where someone thought that all the stats were misleading, just like how the Phalanx has a higher offensive value than a Sov, but get's its ass kicked in a duel between that ship. So I assume that we're more interested in why it's doing the same amount of damage in almost half the time as a helev leahval.
In any event, it's more likely that the stat itself is not misleading so much as this is a bug that needs to be looked into. Which brings me to the point I've been trying to explain if you'll let me.
It is entirely possible that through a fluke of math, the damage calculations that Optec used for this ship match the stat we see on the screen. That's what I've been working on.Numbers-wise it sort of looks ok.
What I am hypothesizing right now is that something about burst fire torpedoes did not get accounted for when the Romulans switched to the unique shot cycle system that all but one of their vessels use. Hopefully Optec can look at it and tell us whether or not there's a problem.
As far as the Leahval is concerned, it seems you may be on to something.
I've been agreeing with the main point from your original post, but it feels like you've been arguing with me the whole way. It's like you've gone all :wheelchair: on me. What's the deal? :kid:
posted on November 29th, 2009, 9:36 am
everything is alright with the leahval 
posted on November 29th, 2009, 9:38 am
Last edited by Boggz on November 29th, 2009, 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Oh ...
Hmm ... Maybe I forgot what point I was trying to make er ... I've been working a lot. I'm tired. I'm 24 and CLEARLY getting old. Give a guy a break :crybaby:
Heh ... yes it's overpowered. Hopefully with the changes to mixed tech that should arrive within the next two patches we will see a little more relevance from other mix ships and less power from this one. Yes, Breen have a 1-2--3-4-5 shot rate. Maaaaah bad.
For some reason these Leahvals just end up owning everything. Quack quack quack.
I heart you, Mal.
EDIT: Optec chimed in while I was posting.
So it's supposed to be that way? Don't you think then that the Offensive value should reflect that? I mean ... how does getting Badass burst torps warrant a drop in O-value? Seems to me that in order to let people know just what that thing is packin' it should say it has raised value.
Hmm ... Maybe I forgot what point I was trying to make er ... I've been working a lot. I'm tired. I'm 24 and CLEARLY getting old. Give a guy a break :crybaby:
Heh ... yes it's overpowered. Hopefully with the changes to mixed tech that should arrive within the next two patches we will see a little more relevance from other mix ships and less power from this one. Yes, Breen have a 1-2--3-4-5 shot rate. Maaaaah bad.
For some reason these Leahvals just end up owning everything. Quack quack quack.
I heart you, Mal.
EDIT: Optec chimed in while I was posting.
So it's supposed to be that way? Don't you think then that the Offensive value should reflect that? I mean ... how does getting Badass burst torps warrant a drop in O-value? Seems to me that in order to let people know just what that thing is packin' it should say it has raised value.
posted on November 29th, 2009, 9:53 am
I heart you, Mal.
Ah, I feel warm and squishy inside.
Optec, I don't mean to press, since of all of us you're the one who actually knows what he's talking about
, but the Fed mixed tech leahval seems to do about 50%-60% more damage than a normal one. I'm just trying to figure it out. Most mixed tech vessels don't get that kind of increase in their dps.posted on November 29th, 2009, 10:05 am
Last edited by Optec on November 29th, 2009, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
the leahval works as intended ^^ there were some general flaws in the formulas for damage calculation on torpedo weapons, but besides that, everything is alright
//edit: oh and energy reeling has been changed either way. in the current dev version, the torpedos do 9 damage per shot, thanks to the new formulas
//edit2: the normal Leahval deals over 40 damage per disruptor volley if energy reeling is active, in a much shorter time then the torpedoes will its not the refit, its the vessel, har har
//edit: oh and energy reeling has been changed either way. in the current dev version, the torpedos do 9 damage per shot, thanks to the new formulas
//edit2: the normal Leahval deals over 40 damage per disruptor volley if energy reeling is active, in a much shorter time then the torpedoes will
its not the refit, its the vessel, har har1, 2
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests