Proxy Yarding

posted on December 4th, 2010, 7:25 pm

Balance suggestion regarding proxy yarding: when constructing a yard (or a turret), make the thing being constructed target-able. Additionally, make the construction ship more vulnerable during construction.  (think how dode-relays have their construction period where they are weak)

(you could make the 'weak-during-construction' affect not take place when nearby another friendly station)

posted on December 4th, 2010, 7:31 pm

Buildings being attackable while under construction would be quite nice, tho it might change gameplay a lot.

posted on December 4th, 2010, 7:32 pm

Balance suggestion regarding proxy yarding: when constructing a yard (or a turret), make the thing being constructed target-able. Additionally, make the construction ship more vulnerable during construction.  (think how dode-relays have their construction period where they are weak)

(you could make the 'weak-during-construction' affect not take place when nearby another friendly station)

ya but the yard can extend the shields 

posted on December 4th, 2010, 7:35 pm

An idea that might be hard to implement...

Make the little construction drones that deploy to create the station targetable.  Destroying them slows down construction or forces it to pause while the construction ship replicates more. After a few seconds it deploys a new wave.

An easier solution would be to tie construction to the offensive subsystem on a builder ship, and make that subsystem take damage if fired upon while building.

EDIT: ships and abilities that disable weapons become very effective raiders for stopping construction.

posted on December 4th, 2010, 8:03 pm

The issue is much deeper than any of this.  The strength of proxy yarding lies in the fact that you can repair your ships almost instantly at no cost to you.  This wasn't meaningful from 3.0.5a and before, because ships were cheaper and you had so many that the loss of a few of them didn't make much difference.

Ships are more expensive now, and so your few ships need to be babied as much as possible.  In walks proxy yarding:  A way to hold territory with relatively few ships which are constantly being cycled through the repair cue.  The time to repair is very short, and the cost is nil.  Some races actually have less of an incentive to build turrets because their small yard costs as much, if not less, than building up a turret system to protect that area, and is better at supporting your main fleet should they need to be on the defense.

Remember that you can have things be Fast, Cheap, or Good, and that you can usually only pick 2 of those things.  Proxy yards encompass all 3.  In Starcraft 1, The zerg fully repaired, but slowly.  They didn't have fast.  The Protoss could only regain their shields, not their hitpoints.  They didn't have good.  The Terrans could fully repair quickly with the help of multiple SCVs, but it would cost money.  They didn't have cheap.

In any serious game balancing discussion of proxy yards, this issue needs to be addressed.

posted on December 4th, 2010, 8:32 pm

are you saying repairing should cost money?  Or happen slower?  A slower repair rate seems like it would solve the problem pretty well, as honestly repairing ships in the middle of a battle is pretty unrealistic.

What if the staryard had to lower shields to repair a ship?

[vonCarstein]

posted on December 4th, 2010, 9:07 pm

Last edited by vonCarstein on December 4th, 2010, 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hmm making repair cost something doesnt sound too bad.. or just lower the repair rate... would also be good.. but lowering shields... that sounds like overkill... if a fed harrasses you with intreps in early-mid you will have to decide for the ship or the yard.. because if that thing lowers shields the intreps will tricobalt the hell out of it... and every other rush strategy will likely take out your yard as well. Nor will you be able to repair your ships anywhere near the frontline in lategame because lategame ships will just eat a yard without shields

[Tyler]

posted on December 4th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Last edited by Tyler on December 4th, 2010, 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lowering the shields for only a second or 2 when the ship is docking, then raising them after it docks should hurt too bad. Shield collisions should be deadly to both units.

Changing the shields so that they only drop from the entry direction would be best, but probably not possible.

posted on December 4th, 2010, 10:17 pm

Hmm When its to short it wouldnt be very much of a disadvantage... and does anyone know how many Tricobalts it needs to 1-hit an unshielded small yard?

posted on December 4th, 2010, 10:23 pm

Any adjustment to the repair function will have serious implications to gameplay.  Even adding a small cost would change the dynamic of teching and make raiding far more deadly.  Also, turrets would become significantly more deadly as their damage would actually cost money...

posted on December 4th, 2010, 10:26 pm

Hmm When its to short it wouldnt be very much of a disadvantage... and does anyone know how many Tricobalts it needs to 1-hit an unshielded small yard?

Typically, about 8 to 10. Just over 20 for the Klingon one.

posted on December 4th, 2010, 11:13 pm

The issue is much deeper than any of this.  The strength of proxy yarding lies in the fact that you can repair your ships almost instantly at no cost to you. 

Ok. (How about) in addition to the above, instead of automatically giving a yard the repair facility, make it an upgrade/extension that one has to buy.

posted on December 4th, 2010, 11:14 pm

i like the idea of making yards have to drop their shields briefly to allow a ship to dock.

i also like the idea of being able to slow down or hinder construction before it is done. it has to be done carefully to avoid a couple destroyers being able to stop a station building at all.

i do think ships should repair about 20% slower. still a LOT faster than building, but not as fast as now.

after a battle you will still easily be able to repair your damaged ship before the next battle, but it wont be as useful while under attack.

i also like the idea of a ship being able to dock with a starbase and repair faster than unaided, but slower than building a new ship. like all those ships that docked at ds9 and got repaired, ds9 wasnt a yard or repair dock, just a station, but repairs happened faster.

Ok. (How about) in addition to the above, instead of automatically giving a yard the repair facility, make it an upgrade/extension that one has to buy.

i dont like that very much.

posted on December 5th, 2010, 12:53 am

(I do not feel like quoting as I am lazy)

I like the slower repair idea, as right now ships are virtually untouchable while repairing until you see a let that can kill a Cube (or quickly kill the yard that's repairing a ship) without trouble. Maybe Dominion could be slower at repairing, while Klingons could be faster than normal.

No shields is an interesting idea, however I remember TNG showing that ships could fly thru shields if allowed to, maybe the yard's shield needs to be made weaker on that shield facing to allow a ship in, thus making it take more damage from weapons fire.

posted on December 5th, 2010, 1:13 am

Nebula has a good point, starbases should have repairs go faster. Prehaps a short range special weapon that disables engines/weapons for a period of time, and for that same period of time causes a accelerated repair rate. Needless to say, it wont work on enemies.

Another option, would be to have a repair mode for all ships, which disables engines/weapons, and for Borg that mode works much faster. With this one, it'd not be smart to use it under fire, but for a ship that won a battle but was crippled (or rammed by a bug loosing engines) it would allow a faster way out.