My Friend the Vutpa
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posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:46 am
First Vorcha vs. First de-cloaking Vutpa
Amount of resources spent AFTER Vorcha are buildable.
Ordnance Depot: 600/300
Mass Missiles: 316/791
Call to Arms: 148/369
Vutpa: 754/214/29
Troopship: 150/50/3
1958 Dilithium / 1724 Tritanium / 32 Supplies
This is the cost of fielding a single Vupta capable of active decloak (after Vorcha are available.
That's more than your second supply purchase.
Just for the record. I hope that the idea of removing the armory from Ordinance Depot pre-req's is still on the books. Being able to go straight to Vutpa would be fantastic. Perhaps removing the req for SO much research to have the ONLY active decloak the Klingons have
.
The research costs of fielding the only active decloak the Klingons have might um ... be looked at? Maybe? These are the figures ONLY after Vorcha are already available (which I find quite useful at destroying ships before they can escape under cloak).
Just thought I'd throw that out there
.
Amount of resources spent AFTER Vorcha are buildable.
Ordnance Depot: 600/300
Mass Missiles: 316/791
Call to Arms: 148/369
Vutpa: 754/214/29
Troopship: 150/50/3
1958 Dilithium / 1724 Tritanium / 32 Supplies
This is the cost of fielding a single Vupta capable of active decloak (after Vorcha are available.
That's more than your second supply purchase.
Just for the record. I hope that the idea of removing the armory from Ordinance Depot pre-req's is still on the books. Being able to go straight to Vutpa would be fantastic. Perhaps removing the req for SO much research to have the ONLY active decloak the Klingons have
. The research costs of fielding the only active decloak the Klingons have might um ... be looked at? Maybe? These are the figures ONLY after Vorcha are already available (which I find quite useful at destroying ships before they can escape under cloak).
Just thought I'd throw that out there
.
posted on November 6th, 2010, 8:38 am
posted on November 6th, 2010, 3:01 pm
These are the total costs of the Dominion and Borg equivalents:
Construction Yard: 960 240
Tech Lab: 600 300
Research for cloak detect: 187 468 49
Sensor Station: 269 189 32
Total: 2016 1197 81 + random Dominion unit.
Trans Matrix: 1200 600
Conduction Matrix: 400 200
Typical Diamond: 2040 1746 97
Total: 3640 2546 97
To use the same system with Klingons that'd be adding on an additional 1620 405 to your figures. Basically getting closer to Borg costs for the first active cloak detect.
Of course, Klingons are cloakers and I really don't mind them getting worse active cloak than other non-cloakers, given that they have access to two types of passive cloak detect too. You'll notice of course there are holes in each faction's cloak detect, which will be addressed
Construction Yard: 960 240
Tech Lab: 600 300
Research for cloak detect: 187 468 49
Sensor Station: 269 189 32
Total: 2016 1197 81 + random Dominion unit.
Trans Matrix: 1200 600
Conduction Matrix: 400 200
Typical Diamond: 2040 1746 97
Total: 3640 2546 97
To use the same system with Klingons that'd be adding on an additional 1620 405 to your figures. Basically getting closer to Borg costs for the first active cloak detect.
Of course, Klingons are cloakers and I really don't mind them getting worse active cloak than other non-cloakers, given that they have access to two types of passive cloak detect too. You'll notice of course there are holes in each faction's cloak detect, which will be addressed
posted on November 6th, 2010, 5:16 pm
Last edited by Boggz on November 6th, 2010, 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This wasn't a thread designed to compare cloak detect between races, Dom 
.
It was to illustrate how many resources it requires to get Vutpa instead of choosing production of heavier warships.
As you'll note, the cost I illustrated is the cost of a single Vutpa capable of decloaking AFTER vorcha are already available. It was an illustration of Vorcha vs Vutpa.
EDIT: Ok, after re-reading I can see where it might seem like I was comparing other races.
I really meant that the Dominion active decloak is available much sooner. It might cost quite a bit, but it's still available earlier and is MUCH more flexible than the Vutpa. I don't think anyone disputes that the Borg active Decloak also takes a LONG time to reach.
Seemed to me that the Armory / Ordnance Depot split might be very beneficial so that the Vutpa is more quickly accessible.
.It was to illustrate how many resources it requires to get Vutpa instead of choosing production of heavier warships.
As you'll note, the cost I illustrated is the cost of a single Vutpa capable of decloaking AFTER vorcha are already available. It was an illustration of Vorcha vs Vutpa
.EDIT: Ok, after re-reading I can see where it might seem like I was comparing other races.
The research costs of fielding the only active decloak the Klingons have might um ... be looked at? Maybe?
I really meant that the Dominion active decloak is available much sooner. It might cost quite a bit, but it's still available earlier and is MUCH more flexible than the Vutpa
. I don't think anyone disputes that the Borg active Decloak also takes a LONG time to reach.Seemed to me that the Armory / Ordnance Depot split might be very beneficial so that the Vutpa is more quickly accessible.
posted on November 6th, 2010, 5:44 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on November 6th, 2010, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But of course it was - if it wasn't, it wouldn't be a game 
. When saying that Klingons get their only active cloak detect too late and that the research costs should be looked at for that, it is important to consider what other factions get at similar times without a doubt. Don't try to pick a fight where there is none
If talking about Vor'cha versus Vutpa', Vutpa' and Vor'cha have rather different roles and different countering strategies - if I were facing a ton of torpedo beasties, I'd ignore the Vor'cha altogether in most cases for example. Not to mention the Vutpa' gets 100% hit torpedoes, which is a significant amount of firepower against all types of units compared to the Vor'cha.
. Note that I am not talking about place in the tech tree here .
EDIT: aaaaand you edited
You may want to re-read my previous post once again however
. When saying that Klingons get their only active cloak detect too late and that the research costs should be looked at for that, it is important to consider what other factions get at similar times without a doubt. Don't try to pick a fight where there is none If talking about Vor'cha versus Vutpa', Vutpa' and Vor'cha have rather different roles and different countering strategies - if I were facing a ton of torpedo beasties, I'd ignore the Vor'cha altogether in most cases for example. Not to mention the Vutpa' gets 100% hit torpedoes, which is a significant amount of firepower against all types of units compared to the Vor'cha.
. Note that I am not talking about place in the tech tree here .EDIT: aaaaand you edited
You may want to re-read my previous post once again however posted on November 6th, 2010, 5:53 pm
Oooook .... so you don't think the Armory and the Ordnance Depot should interchangeable options?
Or ... were you just trying to imply that I'm not looking at balance on the whole?
And Klingons DO get their only active too late. Everyone else has active decloak MUCH sooner. Even Borg has active AoE reveal with EM Scubes. It's not as active as Fed/Rom/Dom, but it's basically AoE manual targetting.
Soooo ...... making the Ordnance Depot not require the Armory seems ... pretty reasonable to me
Or ... were you just trying to imply that I'm not looking at balance on the whole?
And Klingons DO get their only active too late. Everyone else has active decloak MUCH sooner. Even Borg has active AoE reveal with EM Scubes. It's not as active as Fed/Rom/Dom, but it's basically AoE manual targetting.
Soooo ...... making the Ordnance Depot not require the Armory seems ... pretty reasonable to me
posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:11 pm
Last edited by Boggz on November 6th, 2010, 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EDIT: Well ok it looks like you deleted your own post so ...
Active Cloak Detect = Mass Seekers / Nanites / Scout Detect / blah blah blah
Turrets/sensor stations are not active. I consider those passive because you have no control over it. Active is Using a Vutpa Refit to decloak something.
That being said, having the Vutpa not require the Armory WOULD increase the speed at which you can get active cloak detect. You wouldn't have to build the Armory to get the Ordnance Depot required to get the Vutpa refit needed to have active cloak detect.
Get it?
You know, you could at least ATTEMPT to meet a fella halfway in his opinion.
Dominus_Noctis wrote:I assumed that by active cloak detect you meant solely the ability to simply detect when you want, where you want, as the only two Borg/Klingon options at the moment are via turrets there
Active Cloak Detect = Mass Seekers / Nanites / Scout Detect / blah blah blah
Turrets/sensor stations are not active. I consider those passive because you have no control over it. Active is Using a Vutpa Refit to decloak something.
That being said, having the Vutpa not require the Armory WOULD increase the speed at which you can get active cloak detect. You wouldn't have to build the Armory to get the Ordnance Depot required to get the Vutpa refit needed to have active cloak detect.
Get it?
You know, you could at least ATTEMPT to meet a fella halfway in his opinion.
posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:21 pm
I'm saying that I don't think that research costs of Mass Seekers and Call to Arms should necessarily be changed . I didn't say anything about Ordnance Depot at all (until now), but there is one important thing to consider - and that is all the other researches being available, along with the LuSpet and Negh'var (since you could now go straight to Negh'vars from the Imperial Yard, which was a viable strategy in previous patches).
In other words that means that the Ordnance Depot being available independently of the Armory would have a significant impact on Klingon play for not just the Vutpa' (though it would also make Call To Arms quite dangerous, similar to current issues with the B-8s).
Considering how easy Klingon high-tech vessels are to spam, since they have rather high cost-effectiveness ratios, I think it would be far better if the Ordnance Depot were simply stricken from the requirements of the Vutpa', but that would have zero effect on when you get cloak detect. And that's again why I said
.
I assumed that by active cloak detect you meant solely the ability to simply detect when you want, where you want, as the only two Borg/Klingon options at the moment are via turrets there.
Seems you managed to quote me for the half second I had that post up before I deleted it
. I didn't say anything about Ordnance Depot at all (until now), but there is one important thing to consider - and that is all the other researches being available, along with the LuSpet and Negh'var (since you could now go straight to Negh'vars from the Imperial Yard, which was a viable strategy in previous patches). In other words that means that the Ordnance Depot being available independently of the Armory would have a significant impact on Klingon play for not just the Vutpa' (though it would also make Call To Arms quite dangerous, similar to current issues with the B-8s).
Considering how easy Klingon high-tech vessels are to spam, since they have rather high cost-effectiveness ratios, I think it would be far better if the Ordnance Depot were simply stricken from the requirements of the Vutpa', but that would have zero effect on when you get cloak detect. And that's again why I said
I don't think addressing it with the Vutpa' would be necessarily the wisest, nor the easiest to balance methodYou'll notice of course there are holes in each faction's cloak detect, which will be addressed
.I assumed that by active cloak detect you meant solely the ability to simply detect when you want, where you want, as the only two Borg/Klingon options at the moment are via turrets there
.Seems you managed to quote me for the half second I had that post up before I deleted it
posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:27 pm
Last edited by Boggz on November 6th, 2010, 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Seems you managed to quote me for the half second I had that post up before I deleted it
Well most people can't delete their own posts so I didn't expect it.
You know, instead of drawing in thing after thing after thing, you could always just go "interesting, the Vutpa itself as an equivalent option to the Vorcha isn't a bad idea, but we'd have to make sure that the higher Bships can't be rushed and spammed like in 3.1.0".
You could always say that instead of assuming that I was too ignorant to consider it.
posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:36 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on November 6th, 2010, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Everybody can delete their own posts
It wasn't just about the higher battleships as I said - it's about all the nasty researches and the battleships which the Ordnance Depot makes possible. Since you mentioned nothing about equating the Vor'cha and Vutpa' (just that you find the Vor'cha handy) in the initial post I didn't even think to mention any argument about that until you started bringing it up in later posts .
I'm sure you'd agree now that even though the Ordnance Depot available that early might seem reasonable, it wouldn't only affect the Vutpa', and would require quite a lot of Klingon reorganization, for both researches and ship-station requirements.
It wasn't just about the higher battleships as I said - it's about all the nasty researches and the battleships which the Ordnance Depot makes possible
. Since you mentioned nothing about equating the Vor'cha and Vutpa' (just that you find the Vor'cha handy) in the initial post I didn't even think to mention any argument about that until you started bringing it up in later posts . I'm sure you'd agree now that even though the Ordnance Depot available that early might seem reasonable, it wouldn't only affect the Vutpa', and would require quite a lot of Klingon reorganization, for both researches and ship-station requirements.
posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:44 pm
Dominus_Noctis wrote:Since you mentioned nothing about equating the Vor'cha and Vutpa' (just that you find the Vor'cha handy) in the initial post I didn't even think to mention any argument about that until you started bringing it up in later posts
Oh?
Boggz wrote:First Vorcha vs. First de-cloaking Vutpa
Amount of resources spent AFTER Vorcha are buildable.
This is the cost of fielding a single Vupta capable of active decloak (after Vorcha are available.
I hope that the idea of removing the armory from Ordinance Depot pre-req's is still on the books. Being able to go straight to Vutpa would be fantastic.
These are the figures ONLY after Vorcha are already available (which I find quite useful at destroying ships before they can escape under cloak).
Remember how I said that you can always TRY and meet a person halfway? Even turtles have to pull their heads out of their shells to eat
. Oh wait ... you're gonna say- "Not necessarily. Over 40% of turtle species are actually unable to pull their heads inside their shells full in the first place."[align=center]
THIS IS A TURTLE RIDING A MINI SKATEBOARD
Your argument is Invalid[/align]
posted on November 6th, 2010, 6:56 pm
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to interpret bolding and caps lock to imply that you are saying that "Vutpa' and Vor'cha have the same role". I can't 'meet someone half way' if the argument they are trying to make is hidden (at least to me) in the first place . Just state it as it is . Not everything has to be an argument mate.
Here's how I read your quoted statement: "here's the cost of the first available Vutpa', which I will calculate after the Vor'cha becomes available, oh, and I find the Vor'cha useful at destroying cloaking ships too". I did not understand I was supposed to assume and read into your statements that you meant that you believe the Vor'cha occupies the same role that the Vutpa' has, and that the Vor'cha does it better than the Vutpa' (which ignores that the Vutpa' multi-targets for manual targeting). Even now, just to make sure, is that what you are saying?
Why are we are debating semantics now though - that wasn't the point of this thread...
. Please try not to be so hotheaded - I won't flame you back, but you've instigated more than your share of fights on the forums, and it's annoying to be disrespected like that
. Just state it as it is . Not everything has to be an argument mate.Here's how I read your quoted statement: "here's the cost of the first available Vutpa', which I will calculate after the Vor'cha becomes available, oh, and I find the Vor'cha useful at destroying cloaking ships too". I did not understand I was supposed to assume and read into your statements that you meant that you believe the Vor'cha occupies the same role that the Vutpa' has, and that the Vor'cha does it better than the Vutpa' (which ignores that the Vutpa' multi-targets for manual targeting). Even now, just to make sure, is that what you are saying?
Why are we are debating semantics now though - that wasn't the point of this thread...
. Please try not to be so hotheaded - I won't flame you back, but you've instigated more than your share of fights on the forums, and it's annoying to be disrespected like that posted on November 6th, 2010, 7:03 pm
Oh please ....
You also don't have to arbitrarily dissect everything anyone puts forth. That's also disrespectful. It's just nit-picking for the sake of pointing out what you deem flaws in logic.
If you weren't sure what my point was then you could have asked.
I was saying that hopefully the Vutpa wouldn't need an extra station more beyond the Vorcha. Just wanted to point out the debilitating cost of getting even a single active-decloaking Vutpa out once you can already build the sturdier and all-around stronger Vorcha on the field. I thought I had addressed that sufficiently.
You also don't have to arbitrarily dissect everything anyone puts forth. That's also disrespectful. It's just nit-picking for the sake of pointing out what you deem flaws in logic.
If you weren't sure what my point was then you could have asked
.I was saying that hopefully the Vutpa wouldn't need an extra station more beyond the Vorcha. Just wanted to point out the debilitating cost of getting even a single active-decloaking Vutpa out once you can already build the sturdier and all-around stronger Vorcha on the field. I thought I had addressed that sufficiently.
posted on November 6th, 2010, 7:20 pm
I thought I knew what your point was, just as I thought you knew what mine was. It can be quite hard to read people (and their comments) over the Internet, as I'm sure you know, so I don't think it should be too surprising that things can be interpreted differently that what was intended
I'm certainly not "arbitrarily dissecting everything anyone puts forth" nor "nit-picking" - I'm sure if you look through my posts you'll find that the majority of mine dealing with idea threads etc are positive. If you feel that way about your own threads, so be it, but everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and just because mine differs doesn't make it wrong and "arbitrary" 
. In this one I feel that the points I brought up are valid, otherwise I would not have posted them in the first place .
Ah, but now you have stated your true argument I believe, which is that you think the Vutpa' is useless in some regard:
I do not agree with that, as they make excellent counters to torpedo units, as well as dealing very high levels of damage due to torpedo dominance. They fulfill a quite different role than the Vor'cha in many respects, as the Vutpa' is a fleet-filler, whereas the Vor'cha is more specialized with its passive and special weapon. The Vutpa' can be upgraded to deal multi-targetting damage on occasion, and deals it by default as well. It keeps enemy vessels decloaked by the two's, letting your other ships hit them. It isn't as costly as the Vor'cha (barely so of course), and can recrew your weaker crewed Klingon ships, especially once upgraded. Though as I have stated time and time against, the Vutpa' being earlier would be nice as it excels at killing smaller units and is a natural counterpart for the Vor'cha. As I said, the very serious problem (again, not nit-picking ) would be giving the Ordnance Depot without the Armory Requirement for the before-stated reasons.
I'm certainly not "arbitrarily dissecting everything anyone puts forth" nor "nit-picking" - I'm sure if you look through my posts you'll find that the majority of mine dealing with idea threads etc are positive
. If you feel that way about your own threads, so be it, but everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and just because mine differs doesn't make it wrong and "arbitrary" . In this one I feel that the points I brought up are valid, otherwise I would not have posted them in the first place . Ah, but now you have stated your true argument I believe, which is that you think the Vutpa' is useless in some regard:
once you can already build the sturdier and all-around stronger Vorcha on the field
I do not agree with that, as they make excellent counters to torpedo units, as well as dealing very high levels of damage due to torpedo dominance. They fulfill a quite different role than the Vor'cha in many respects, as the Vutpa' is a fleet-filler, whereas the Vor'cha is more specialized with its passive and special weapon. The Vutpa' can be upgraded to deal multi-targetting damage on occasion, and deals it by default as well. It keeps enemy vessels decloaked by the two's, letting your other ships hit them. It isn't as costly as the Vor'cha (barely so of course), and can recrew your weaker crewed Klingon ships, especially once upgraded. Though as I have stated time and time against, the Vutpa' being earlier would be nice as it excels at killing smaller units and is a natural counterpart for the Vor'cha
. As I said, the very serious problem (again, not nit-picking ) would be giving the Ordnance Depot without the Armory Requirement for the before-stated reasons.posted on November 6th, 2010, 7:57 pm
Gosh, well I guess I'm just glad not everyone else requires such precise and unmistakable specifics in order to have a thoughtful conversation about it.
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