Klingon balancing issus

posted on April 20th, 2009, 11:32 am

a minute ago i read mark's post on how klingons r weak. instead of spamming in the wrong topic i decided to start a new one.

imo klingons r just fine. it's true that klingon tech takes longer then others but u get one middle shipyard with middle price plus u can expand 1st shipyard for 300d which also compensates for expensive tech & economy.

i really would like to hear what the community thinks about klingons in 3.0.5. post ur thoughts

@mark: i remember us playing 1v1 (klings vs feds) & i remember winning that game. i admit i could have been drunk and imagining all of it but hmm ... i haven't been drinking so much lately

posted on April 20th, 2009, 11:37 am

"It's not the weapon, it's the soldier who wields it."

posted on April 20th, 2009, 11:41 am

No we did play a game, its when i was testing new federation stratergies such as building a starbase round my 2nd second mining straight away...

I do agree to an extent they are fine, but only if you have 3 moon sets...

Everything they have costs a bomb, to progress through the tech tree costs a bomb and they have to many ships doing too many similar things with just renamd weapon names and a slightly different special weapon... Much more different from the other races who havevariation, not repitition...

posted on April 20th, 2009, 12:07 pm

Yaaaar... Perhaps Tom you would be so Kind as to explain in more detail why they aren't weak?

[tom]

posted on April 20th, 2009, 12:25 pm

Last edited by tom on April 20th, 2009, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

could u elaborate mark. i would like to hear a bit more of what u mean by repitation.

for me it's as follows:
b'rel - anti rhienn/bug/saber ship, not v good against sabers with speed upgrade
k'vort - main battle ship early game. the fact that sa can be fired while cloak makes it gr8 for sniping norways & miners whitout even fighting a battle, usefull until anticloak research
sus'a - good destroyer vs larger ships
arty ship - everybody knows that one
the girls avatar torp ship - i use it vs the borg (scubes with transwarp anyone )
vorcha - fast heavy cruiser. speed upgrade makes it good late game harassment ship
trooptransoprt - 45% torp resistance + ability to upgrade, nice. i don't use it though
luspet - no comment needed
beam heavy cruiser - i think it's long range, so a rare thing in klingon fleet
negh'var - no redundancy here i think

so really i don't see how those ships can fulfill the same role.

i guess that klingon expensive tech is to balance their ability to expand early game. with cloak their can control most of the map & secure 2 or even 3 expansions early game just with their ships (not vs roms that is ). from there it's just containing the enemy and outproduce him with ur late game ships.

imo klingons r a race that u just can't sit back & relax. u must control the game & if ur harassment fails u loose. at least i loose when my harassment fails but i usually play too aggressively

@dominus: u r still a jerk. u posted while i was still writing. i think it could be a disease man . the only way i can prove it is by playing i guess. i haven't play much FO lately but i will try to catch u guys online.

[Anonymous]

posted on April 20th, 2009, 3:28 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on April 20th, 2009, 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Im not so sure if I agree that klings are weak.

All i see is the fed norway being over-endowed. not overpowerful, but overendowed with ability. the quantum of regeneration needs to be taken into account for norways just as Fof of the luspet does not destroy everything with the first shot.
the special ability needs to be taken into perspective.

The romulan disruptors too do more damage than klingon weapons on kvorts and bops, which is why they appear to dwarf the klings.
5 rhienns with a phaser refit tend to take out twice as many mining and sundry facilities as 5 bops or kvorts. but that may be cos rhienns are already known as overpowered which has been indicated on many a post, and do need a slight curtail -- if anything I feel the refit value for each ship should be made commensurate in cost ot the gained power.....
do not nerf them.

the only neg I see with the kling is the jigsaw of stations needed to unlock certain classes such as the vorcha or the luspet.

other than that they're fine..... but im still trying to learn them

so Im not 100% reliable here

posted on April 20th, 2009, 7:37 pm

@serpicus

i dont think the rhienn is overpowered its fine how it is. And u compare apples with pears. For example the costs of builting the ship and get to its refits. A brel cost is much less then of a rhienn or rhienn refit, and can massed faster. 

"if anything I feel the refit value for each ship should be made commensurate in cost ot the gained power....."

rhienn disruptor refit cost is about 373/160/30(23) and a brel is about 236/75/9 and here some more stats

shield/hull/speed/off power
brel
170/67/130/17(15)
rhienn disruptors
292/115/120/14

IMO all fine. :-D

peace & long life
Deimos

[Anonymous]

posted on April 20th, 2009, 7:39 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on April 20th, 2009, 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i am not saying the basic rhienn is overpowered. I mentioned the refitted versions.

all i suggested was a slight increase in the cost ot refit the individual rhienns. not an increase in research costs, and not the cost of the rhienn itself.

maybe we're talking at cross purposes

posted on April 20th, 2009, 8:05 pm

ahmm maybe 

but seems u dont understand what i wanna make clear ... the rhienn are relative expensive without refit its cost is grap compare with that what u get and with refit its goes better cost/performance relation, but always expensive.

peace & long life
Deimos

posted on April 20th, 2009, 8:07 pm

yah, klingons kick butt even if you don't entirely know how to use them.

[Anonymous]

posted on April 20th, 2009, 8:17 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on April 20th, 2009, 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ahmm maybe 

but seems u dont understand what i wanna make clear ... the rhienn are relative expensive without refit its cost is grap compare with that what u get and with refit its goes better cost/performance relation, but always expensive.

peace & long life
Deimos

i got what u were saying. I was trying to resolve the unnecesary argument of whether you feel they are just right vs whether i and the rest of the players feel they are overpowered.

fyi - as u can see for yourself, the stats give the rhienn an extra edge to almost double the power of the brel in hull and stats, with only a 100 dil/tri differnece. supply for roms and klings are irrelevant at the outset of the game....
secondly let's not forget the range of the weapons as well. so in all the rhienn is indeed more powerful than a sabre, a bop, and a jem cruiser for very little resource disparity... leaving only the scubes to rip them apart,a nd even there they pester from afar....

but to end this mea culpa mea culpa

[tom]

posted on April 21st, 2009, 8:55 am

Last edited by tom on April 21st, 2009, 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i tested rhienn vs b'rel with deimos a week ago or so. to get refited rhienn u need to pay 800d/400t for station & research. afaik with going 1 yard then research ur pretty much dead. going 2 yards will cost u enough for klingons to expand. at least thats what i do when i see 2nd yard b4 research station. to all the cost of rhienn refits add the fact that u need just 4-5 b'rels to harass effectively. imo it's pretty much as i said b4. if u played well refited rheinns r not a problem for klingons. i have much harder time vs shield recharge.

posted on April 21st, 2009, 7:55 pm

Yeah... Romulans rely too much on very few units: aka Generix, Rhienn, Norexan... and very rarely Serkas. Shield recharge is one of those ubiquitous Romulan things ... they really need more diverse unit lineup with a spreading out of abilities probably, or at least a tone down. I would go for that if the Rhienn wasn't changed at all.

posted on April 21st, 2009, 8:07 pm

i tested rhienn vs b'rel with deimos a week ago or so. to get refited rhienn u need to pay 800d/400t for station & research. afaik with going 1 yard then research ur pretty much dead. going 2 yards will cost u enough for klingons to expand. at least thats what i do when i see 2nd yard b4 research station. to all the cost of rhienn refits add the fact that u need just 4-5 b'rels to harass effectively. imo it's pretty much as i said b4. if u played well refited rheinns r not a problem for klingons. i have much harder time vs shield recharge.

frankly i dont see "i played like this against deimos" as a viable reply.
The cost of the station being included is more to the point. And i agree on that t a certain extent. However, no one who playes klings actually buils the research until there are enough resources flowing... and I do agree that the roms have to build a station to get the rhienn. however i do not feel that counting the station is a viable comparison to include here, as the station is to be built anyway by the rommies to progress in their tech tree.
and once the feature is researched ive personally used 5 rhienn to kill about 8 brels with losing 1 rhienn.
and i then went on to take out the miners of the opposite guy till his teammates came to back him up.

so citing a game here and a game there is not viable. nor is the inclusion of station cost relevant as it is a standard part of the romulan tree. fact remains if we build a rommie station and at the same time build a kling station and have brels go up against  rhienns in close range (phaser refit as the torp refits are stronger still) the rhienn still come out on top.

and i am in no way suggesting nerfing them so dont get me wrong.

however the cost to refit represents an increased supply cost. but i would prefer to see more of a tritanium (not dil or supply) cost increase for the refitting of a rhienn with a phaser of torp refit... not 100 tri ... maybe 25-40 tri more per refit.

I dont think my suggestion is a form of resource swing request. 

posted on April 21st, 2009, 8:48 pm

frankly i dont see "i played like this against deimos" as a viable reply.

here's what i ment: i tested it more then once with a player whose spam rhienn build is pretty optimised.
i don't know how else i can test it, i can draw a picture or something. my math and physics classes were not so long ago so i can try this way .

so citing a game here and a game there is not viable. nor is the inclusion of station cost relevant as it is a standard part of the romulan tree.

the timing of station is important here. u can get it after 1st yard, after 2nd yard or later. this will influence the number of b'rels vs the number of rhienns and klingon BO.

fact remains if we build a rommie station and at the same time build a kling station and have brels go up against  rhienns in close range (phaser refit as the torp refits are stronger still) the rhienn still come out on top.

if both players will basicly do the same the roms will win but thats now the way to play klings vs roms. the "fact" is based on wrong assumptions.

frankly i dont see "i played like this against deimos" as a viable reply.
...
ive personally used 5 rhienn to kill about 8 brels with losing 1 rhienn.
and i then went on to take out the miners of the opposite guy till his teammates came to back him up.
...
so citing a game here and a game there is not viable.

everything counts. building stations, going 1 or 2 yards, timing of expansions ... everything. at least in my opinon.

i agree with u that rhienn refit could get a little higher cost in d/t with supply cost reduction.