Improving the Teutoburg

You feel like a battlecruiser is too weak or a race too strong? Go ahead and discuss it here :)
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posted on August 2nd, 2013, 12:17 am
HI :angry:

today i use teutoburg in 3v3 game, my team was loosing, in combat near my moon oponent build one mayson torp turet, also on my side me and my team buddy we was fed player as well, we bouth called teutoburg almost in same moment to kill that turet from distance

My teutoburg fired 6 voleys of torpedos (god knows how many single torp) in mode as tricobalt special and did negligible 5-10 percent damage on shield ....
i wasnt counting voleys from my team buddy teutoburg .

5-10 percent damage , 6 voleys..... WHAT THE HELL !!!

it is suposed to be anti turet ship..., spare me that crap. ITS AN IDIOTIC SHIP OF NO USE.

Only things its doing is to rise my blood preasure. And damage my pc keyboard.

make it usefull or take it away. :angry:

I am repeating myself but it is USELESS.


If crew from the teutoburg get dressed in space suits, they dismantle the turet more quicly with bare hands, than with ship torpedos.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 2:07 am
Lots of sophisticated exaggeration there - 6 volleys with Tricobalts takes 20% shields off ;). 1 volley with Tricobalts takes 5%. Two Teutoburgs would have had that station down by twice as much obviously.

Next time I suggest using your lovely Surgical Strike to disable the Turret's weapons, then go in and finish it with your fleet, without taking an ounce of damage :) . The Teutoburg in 327 isn't anti-turret or 'I win button', it's anti-turtler. Your opponent can't kill it without coming out of the fort and shooting at it. Few players who play multiplayer turtle in 327, so use its strategic functions to affect victory.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 11:12 am
Shadow24 wrote:If crew from the teutoburg get dressed in space suits, they dismantle the turet more quicly with bare hands, than with ship torpedos.

please make this a new special for the teutoburg. i would love this so much.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 2:42 pm
Dominus, 6 volleys 20%down, dont you think its inadequate.

normaly you get 2 ships, special case 3 ships, if oponent uses 1-2 constructors to build turets, how many platforms can he make in that time needed to destroy one torp turet ?

i do not want to be winning buttom, we called them just as means to deal with one turet.

in my humble opinion 6 volleys should bring turet near destruction , or more than 50% damage (bouth shields and hitpoints).

because you can have max 3 teutoburg than they should be usefull in some way.... if she was mass produced , cant be overpovered, but with these low numbers should do more.
for ship of strategic importance, its a wonderfull joke.

personaly i never use it again.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 3:20 pm
Shadow24 wrote:Dominus, 6 volleys 20%down, dont you think its inadequate.

you're completely ignoring the range aspect here. no matter how many volleys the tueto fires, the turret can't shoot back, it's too far away. their only way of stopping the teuto is to commit combat ships, you should have more of these as you didn't spend your money on turrets. the teuto shouldn't be doing large amounts of damage otherwise it would be op. compare with the e2, which does significant torp damage, a bunch of e2s will flatten turrets quickly, but have to get in range of the turret.

the teutoburg is free at the point of delivery, and arrives almost instantly if you have the slots free. if your warpin slots are too full you can spend a short while decomming e1's to get the slots back. if you're desperate you can just blow up your own e1's. either way this doesn't take long at all. the only comparable arty ship is the HSA, which has build costs and time, keeps a builder busy, doesn't rank and paints a 5 second warning for your enemy.

Shadow24 wrote:normaly you get 2 ships, special case 3 ships, if oponent uses 1-2 constructors to build turets, how many platforms can he make in that time needed to destroy one torp turet ?

the amount of turrets he builds will be capped by cost far earlier than time. if he wants to keep rebuilding turrets again and again, let him. what the hell was he doing with all that stockpiled money anyway? there's no way he has a constant income to do it, as turtling doesn't work very well when you have multiple expansions to protect. if he wants to turtle his main base, go capture all his expansions.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 4:11 pm
It's a failed ship concept. The opportunity cost of deploying it is far greater than its utility. If you're Fed and want to disable a turtled opponent's turret's weapons, build some Defiants. One Defiant + any three other warp in slot ships is more flexible and more effective than a single 4 slot Teutoburg.

I just tested a single Teutoburg vs a Mayson Fed torpedo turret. A full Tricobalt Carpet (from max special energy, so 10 tric torps) reduced its shields from 1897 to 1567 (330 damage). Two Teutoburgs doing the same reduced the shields to 1049.1 (848 damage). Easily countered by Newtons.

I also did a race between the Teutoburg and a Mediterranean, to see if the constructor could build a platform before the turret was destroyed. It wasn't even close. Even two working together only got the turret down to about 1/3 hull before the platform went up, and that was with a second (incomplete due to lack of energy) Tricobalt Carpet.

You could argue that it's possible to use Norways to feed special energy to the Teutoburgs, but this is impractical for two reasons. First, the micro involved is grotesque with how clumsy the interface is (lack of keyboard shortcuts; unresponsive UI). Second, you could take those warp in slots and the resources to build those Norways and build or acquire actually useful ships.

If a turtler commits any kind of quality sally force (Intrepids are ideal due to burst-damage special; 6 - 8 should suffice) to raid the Teuto, it's dead and most of the raiders can get back behind the line unless there's an overwhelming fleet backing the strategic ship up. And if that's there, why the hell are you worried about plinking a turret from extreme range?

You can counter-argue that the Mayson torpedo turret is a worst-case scenario for it, but it and the Dominion Perimeter are the only turrets worth potentially using it on due to their range and damage. Anything else and you can dive 10 - 15 ships into their midst, move the ships in circles and blow up a few turrets and retreat before damage becomes too great.

I'd even go so far as to say it's a choice trap for a Fed player. It looks impressive on the face of it, but it is woefully ineffectual at its touted job. The Hyperspace Artillery vessel is far more effective at clearing turrets.

How to improve it? Remove the accuracy penalty from the torpedo launchers, bump damage per torpedo slightly and reduce warp-in slots required to 3 or even 2.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 5:01 pm
MadHatter wrote:It's a failed ship concept. The opportunity cost of deploying it is far greater than its utility. If you're Fed and want to disable a turtled opponent's turret's weapons, build some Defiants. One Defiant + any three other warp in slot ships is more flexible and more effective than a single 4 slot Teutoburg.
.

defiant isn't cheap. tech costs for yard and chassis 3, ship cost, special weapon research cost. also the defiant needs to get close to use the special, the turret will get a volley off. each turret requires one defiant and a the extra micro for the new defiant.

MadHatter wrote:I also did a race between the Teutoburg and a Mediterranean, to see if the constructor could build a platform before the turret was destroyed. It wasn't even close. Even two working together only got the turret down to about 1/3 hull before the platform went up, and that was with a second (incomplete due to lack of energy) Tricobalt Carpet.

and? that second turret can't fire on the teuto either. two outranged turrets deal just as much damage as 0 outranged turrets. none. as i said before, the turtler isn't stopped by the time cost of building turrets, but by the huge resource cost.

MadHatter wrote:You could argue that it's possible to use Norways to feed special energy to the Teutoburgs, but this is impractical for two reasons. First, the micro involved is grotesque with how clumsy the interface is (lack of keyboard shortcuts; unresponsive UI). Second, you could take those warp in slots and the resources to build those Norways and build or acquire actually useful ships.

a minute ago you were talking about putting the micro into defiants for weapon disabling the turrets. norways are actually brilliant. my favourite use is keeping one with my scout and continuously recharging it for unlimited decloak.

a bunch of norways can be given the instruction at the same time, allowing you to refresh the teuto quickly. norway is a brilliant ship.

by the way, that's why hsa was put on a cooldown timer instead of using special energy. recharging a hsa was bonkers.

MadHatter wrote:If a turtler commits any kind of quality sally force (Intrepids are ideal due to burst-damage special; 6 - 8 should suffice) to raid the Teuto, it's dead and most of the raiders can get back behind the line unless there's an overwhelming fleet backing the strategic ship up. And if that's there, why the hell are you worried about plinking a turret from extreme range?


if the game is too early for a large fleet, then 6-8 intreps would cost so much that they couldn't afford to turtle meaningfully. if it's late game, a small picket of intreps is target practice for a full late game non turtle fleet. what's more is many races have ways to commit ships to battle (aka death). klinks have the mid game polaron field and combat tractor. borg have mid/late nanites and holding beams. feds have late game sovvie special. dominion have early/mid b8 special.

the romulans have the worst option, they only have the cehlaer special. but they make up for it with the serkas, which can fire volleys while cloaked. having some singularity generixes nearby works great against a turtler. it can recharge the energy on your serkases (and other ships), and the special recharges the shields of your ships, basically allowing you to park outside the enemy base and operate without a yard for extended periods.

MadHatter wrote:How to improve it? Remove the accuracy penalty from the torpedo launchers, bump damage per torpedo slightly and reduce warp-in slots required to 3 or even 2.


no. just no. the torp miss rate enforces the unique purpose of the ship. take it away and the ship is just like the e2, a slow torpedo slinger. the miss rate is there to make sure that it is used best against stations. just like the HSA does more damage to stations and less to ships. previously the HSA was used like ion storm, target a fleet of ships and watch them burn. but it could be done from an annoyingly long distance. practically nobody ever shot at stations with it.

the tueto is an odd one out in fleetops. the game is called FLEET ops, it's about fleet combat. the teuto is there to counter turtling. its real purpose is as a threat.
posted on August 2nd, 2013, 7:32 pm
Shadow24 wrote:If crew from the teutoburg get dressed in space suits, they dismantle the turet more quicly with bare hands, than with ship torpedos.


lol

i have to agree that imo it could do with a bit of a buff, i never bother with them as it feels like its tickling its target than damaging it.
posted on August 4th, 2013, 8:46 pm
Myles wrote:defiant isn't cheap. tech costs for yard and chassis 3, ship cost, special weapon research cost. also the defiant needs to get close to use the special, the turret will get a volley off. each turret requires one defiant and a the extra micro for the new defiant.


I didn't say it was cheap, but it's more flexible and a better use of your resources.

Myles wrote:and? that second turret can't fire on the teuto either. two outranged turrets deal just as much damage as 0 outranged turrets. none. as i said before, the turtler isn't stopped by the time cost of building turrets, but by the huge resource cost.


But it keeps the intimidation factor that's keeping the rest of your fleet away from the turret(s). No actual headway made by either side.

Myles wrote:a minute ago you were talking about putting the micro into defiants for weapon disabling the turrets. norways are actually brilliant. my favourite use is keeping one with my scout and continuously recharging it for unlimited decloak.


It's a better use of actions, and it's better training for a mid-range player, too. And I'm not arguing about the possible uses for a Norway, but that there are better ways for a player to spend their attention.

Myles wrote:if the game is too early for a large fleet, then 6-8 intreps would cost so much that they couldn't afford to turtle meaningfully. if it's late game, a small picket of intreps is target practice for a full late game non turtle fleet.


If you have the ships to kill the sally force easily, you have enough to strip the turrets out with minimal losses. It may take a few passes, but hey, nothing to stop you from setting up a shipyard in the area. And talking about the options other races have to force the sally force to fight aren't that relevant when the entire premise of this discussion is that a Federation player is assaulting a fortified position.

MadHatter wrote:How to improve it? Remove the accuracy penalty from the torpedo launchers, bump damage per torpedo slightly and reduce warp-in slots required to 3 or even 2.


Myles wrote:no. just no. the torp miss rate enforces the unique purpose of the ship. take it away and the ship is just like the e2


So, by that reasoning, with the miss chance it's worse than the E2!

Myles wrote:the miss rate is there to make sure that it is used best against stations.


This would have been better achieved by giving it a bonus to damage against stations, not by making it shitty against everything else.

Myles wrote:the tueto is an odd one out in fleetops. the game is called FLEET ops, it's about fleet combat. the teuto is there to counter turtling. its real purpose is as a threat.


The problem is, it isn't. Not really.

There are two turrets in the game where its Strategic range is really important; the Federation torpedo turret, and the Dominion perimeter station, both of which are Artillery. The two types of Fed torpedo turret spread damage around rather than focusing on a single target; which means a well-positioned attacking fleet can remain in the line of fire for a good long while; while there never can be enough Perimeters for good turtling. All the others are Long ranged or shorter. Against those turrets with shorter range, Feds have other options. Better, more flexible options. Although one of those options (Tricobalt bombardment from Intrepids) is being removed in 4.0 (the devs have stated they are removing burst damage abilities from early-game Fed vessels).

I also note that you completely ignored my point on the use of Newtons by a turtling Fed player. While ludicrously expensive, they are an essential tool for a purely defensive player. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that a Fed player attempting to turtle without them is doing it wrong
posted on August 4th, 2013, 10:56 pm
Have to agree with MadHatter here.

I tried the Teuto in so many ways, but pretty much every other solution worked better. Well, even just spamming normal warpins as cannon fodder, ideally when out of supply, is way more efficient, than having a Teuto shoot the turrets for hours and hours.

Even though in theory it's a nice vessel, in a practical matter it's one of the most useless ships in the game.



This would have been better achieved by giving it a bonus to damage against stations, not by making it shitty against everything else.

Absolutely.



The Teuto doesn't really have a good purpose right now, except having three of them, highly ranked, with Norways behind them - which is such a rare and specific case, that i've only seen it ONCE.
posted on August 4th, 2013, 11:08 pm
MadHatter wrote:I didn't say it was cheap, but it's more flexible and a better use of your resources.

you've missed the point. the teutoburg can deal with the problem cheaper and earlier. defiants can sort things out, too. but why pay more? the better use of your resources is the cheaper specialist.

MadHatter wrote:But it keeps the intimidation factor that's keeping the rest of your fleet away from the turret(s). No actual headway made by either side.


wrong, you've made headway, they've paid the exorbitant costs of a turret to keep the status quo. this is a win for you. your money is going elsewhere, making your fleet bigger and expanding. perhaps buying upgrades or specials. your money is making you stronger, theirs isn't making them stronger.

MadHatter wrote:It's a better use of actions, and it's better training for a mid-range player, too. And I'm not arguing about the possible uses for a Norway, but that there are better ways for a player to spend their attention.

1) better use of actions? the job is to counter turtling, both ways get the job done. both are equally good "use of actions", as they both accomplish the same goal.
2) better ways to spend attention? not really, the norway is easy to use, number group them. the first special isn't a lot of micro.

MadHatter wrote:If you have the ships to kill the sally force easily, you have enough to strip the turrets out with minimal losses. It may take a few passes, but hey, nothing to stop you from setting up a shipyard in the area. And talking about the options other races have to force the sally force to fight aren't that relevant when the entire premise of this discussion is that a Federation player is assaulting a fortified position.


1) that's not true. if it's early game then this sally force just doesn't exist as i explained before. if it's late game then there are quite a few turrets. and this will hurt bad. real bad (see later in this post about spreading of fire)
2) Setting up a shipyard is even more work and expense, and a constructor is just as vulnerable to sniping as a teutoburg. also a constructor takes ages to get there.
3) can't believe i actually have to explain this one: team game, allies are non federation. eg you bring the teuto, ally brings the b8s. team games allow for two players to pool resources to climb the techtree quicker, or build late game turrets quicker.

MadHatter wrote:So, by that reasoning, with the miss chance it's worse than the E2!

at destroying ships, yes. if you're dumb enough to rely on a teutoburg for shooting at anything other than a large ship, then you deserve to have it destroyed. the teutoburg has a specific use, killing buildings, which it hits just fine.

MadHatter wrote:This would have been better achieved by giving it a bonus to damage against stations, not by making it shitty against everything else.


do you remember back when the steamrunner was a warpin. when it was part of the normal warpin. it had a special that made it spam highly damaging tricobalts. it was horrendous. if the warpin roulette wheel delivered 2 steamrunners, the federation player could just pick a yard and kill it. it could end a game right at the start. that only had plain arty range.

giving the teutoburg more damage aginst stations would require making it only long range. there's already a ship that's slow, long range, and does big damage to stations. it's the e2. the teuto's tradeoff is that huge range means less damage.

the teutoburg is SUPPOSED to suck against ships. stop using it against ships. pulse weapons doesn't work against stations, why aren't you whining about that? support ships have low hitpoints, i can't hear anyone complaining about that. when a ship is good at one thing it has to be bad at something else. or be stupidly expensive. build a varied fleet and use each ship for what it's good at. stop complaining that the teuto is bad at something it's deliberately bad at.

MadHatter wrote:There are two turrets in the game where its Strategic range is really important; the Federation torpedo turret, and the Dominion perimeter station, both of which are Artillery. The two types of Fed torpedo turret spread damage around rather than focusing on a single target; which means a well-positioned attacking fleet can remain in the line of fire for a good long while; while there never can be enough Perimeters for good turtling. All the others are Long ranged or shorter. Against those turrets with shorter range, Feds have other options. Better, more flexible options. Although one of those options (Tricobalt bombardment from Intrepids) is being removed in 4.0 (the devs have stated they are removing burst damage abilities from early-game Fed vessels).


firstly, those two turrets are where the teutoburg is most needed. but a bunch of lesser turrets can still be a right pain the bum. phaser turrets are decent turrets. and dominion phaser sentries can be built in numbers and have a useful passive. also once the dominion player is done with 3 perimeters they can start on s7 defenders. which are basically turrets that can move incredibly slowly. the dominion tech tree is flatter than the fed's, once a large yard is up all they need is the prototype, and then they can start production. the s7 is great at this role, it takes half damage from long range (eg the e2s you'd want around to damage buildings). and deals increased damage to large sized vessels (eg any large late game ship with big torps, like sovvie or big D).

secondly, about spreading of fire. whichever of your ships is first in will usually take a full volley all to itself. also, risner's turrets have a big strength, in that even when multiple targets are in range, they tend to all gang up on one target each volley.

MadHatter wrote:I also note that you completely ignored my point on the use of Newtons by a turtling Fed player. While ludicrously expensive, they are an essential tool for a purely defensive player. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that a Fed player attempting to turtle without them is doing it wrong


i didn't read that bit.

yes newtons are a great asset for turtling. but they aren't the holy grail. firstly, fed turrets have most of their hitpoints in shields. secondly, to get a single newton able to repair shields costs nearly 500 dil. that's over half your next turret. more importantly it costs over 1000 tri, turtling requires more dil, so tri mining is often not a priority. also it costs 74 supply. which is like 3 turrets. all for something with 33 def. a perfect target for sniping.

beserene wrote:Well, even just spamming normal warpins as cannon fodder, ideally when out of supply, is way more efficient, than having a Teuto shoot the turrets for hours and hours.

while i love the zapp brannigan strategy as much as the next guy, "hours and hours" is pure hyperbole. i'd fear the teuto if it could do large amounts of damage. the teuto doing low damage is compensated by the fact that the enemy turret can't fire back at all. best case scenario with a teuto is that the enemy gets annoyed that you are outranging them and commits their combat fleet to attack your teuto. your fleet then flattens theirs.

imagine a teuto that deals big damage at its current range. the teuto warpin is guaranteed, so when the enemy fleet is busy at your expansion, warp teuto in near their expansion or base. if they have a turret/starbase, it can't reach your teuto, so your teuto destroys their mining station or yard. normal warpins don't have the range to destroy a building that has a turret or starbase nearby. the teuto can't be made into a general building demolisher. it'd be too good.
posted on August 5th, 2013, 1:30 am
you've missed the point. the teutoburg can deal with the problem cheaper and earlier.



Not true. Teutoburg can not deal with anything. Ultimatly not cheaper, because it die realy quickly. Earlier, definatly not because, when he by some miracle destroy any single turret , players are already hour at sleep.

Myles, you defending ship which is biggest joke of 3.2.7. , i love fleet ops, i admire job you developers done, but please accept that a mistake has occured - Teutoburg.

Btw, i like his design, and sound, it be great if teutoburg design stayed in game with totaly different role and properties.
posted on August 5th, 2013, 2:56 am
I sat a Teutorburg in front of a Fed torpedo, a Klingon torpdoe and a Dominion artillery station and it just "tickled" them to use someone else's apt description. The only turrets it did any good against were the regular Dominion turrets and the Romulan turrets (not cloaked obviously) The problem is that neither of those races rely on turrets as a defense they are mostly about building massive amounts of ships.

Against multiple turrets the Descent is far better as you can send it in first and have it absorb the fire and keep the other Fed ships behind it. If it gets to the point that one of them gets their shields down...PRESTO!.....hit the magic button and its all cool again. And after the turrets are destroyed you can actually use the Descent for other stuff unlike the Teutoburg which is useless against anything except crappy low end turrets which are the last things I go after. Maybe I am playing wrong but I go for the high end defense stuff like stations, perimeter defenses and the klingon and fed torpedoe turrets and then the sciency stations and finally the shipyards. I leave the low end turrets (the only thing that the Teutoburg is useful against) till dead last alongside resource stations.

Why would I pick a ship that is only useful against the targets that I will choose last?
posted on August 5th, 2013, 9:29 am
Shadow24 wrote:Ultimatly not cheaper, because it die realy quickly.

if you use it properly then it isn't at much risk of death. the turrets certainly won't return fire. that leaves ships. which i've already covered, the enemy would lose more ships than the teutoburg is worth.

Shadow24 wrote:Earlier, definatly not because, when he by some miracle destroy any single turret , players are already hour at sleep.

1) by earlier i meant in the tech tree. compare with defiants + critical shot:

teutoburg: antares yard, engineering, science, starfleet command.
critical shot for defiant: antares yard, engineering, science, eraudi yard, chassis 1, chassis 2, chassis 3, defiant itself, research for critical shot.

2) two brand new, not ranked, teutoburgs can destroy a gayson quantum turret in just over 1:30. using only 2 norways reduces this quite a bit. the quantum turret has 92 defence and costs similar amounts to a battleship. hardly sleep inducing.

Shadow24 wrote:i admire job you developers done.

it seems there is some confusion here, i'm not a developer, i'm defending the teutoburg because i think it is for the most part useful, and it serves a purpose.

the only change i'd make is to boost its range a little bit. currently it only outranges arty turrets by a small amount, with a small amount of lag it can be tricky to get the positioning perfect to fire without reply. if possible make the torps only fire at stations from this range, and fire at ships at the current range.
posted on August 5th, 2013, 8:38 pm
As this topic appears to be going in circles as of late, a bit of gameplay from the front lines of Version 4 :) :

Starfleet Command is a bit later in the techtree, so we were able to have a lot of fun with the Teutoburg and her allies and not have to worry about really early game nastiness versus the Borg, for instance.

For those who won't care for Eraudi and Antares Yard vessels in our next version, the Teutoburg is essentially one of your only big bruisers remaining. Yup, it still has the miss rate for its special torpedoes, but it does a huge amount of damage with each volley.

Due to this and the new Profile system, it's much less of a specialist than in Version 3, yet will perform its very best versus Defensive Vessels and Stations. Although Starfleet would prefer not to discuss the reports from the battlelines, of enemy vessels obliterated in a few volleys, many commanders will certainly attest to the savagery that accompanies the deployment of a Teutoburg.
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