Ideas for community balance patch/mod

posted on June 15th, 2012, 8:03 pm

Ok I will look for the C11 too. Next weekend should be possible to get something up I think.
In the meantime any other suggestions are welcome.

[Drrrrrr]

posted on June 21st, 2012, 7:28 pm

Last edited by Drrrrrr on June 21st, 2012, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

V0.1 - for simplicity recycle values were not changed
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/3 ... 1-rar.html
--------------Romulan-----------------
Leavhal
Buildtime: 83s (69s)
Leavhal repair special research
Tritanium: 261 (174)
Rhienn
Supply: +50%
Serkas
Range: strategic (artillery)
Singularity transmitter
Dilithium: 352 (503)
--------------Federation-----------------
Monsoon
Buildtime: 91s (76s)
Star Fleet Command
Supply: 125 (75)
--------------Dominion-----------------
A-20 (Bug)
Passive: ADAI removed
Buildtime: 50 (59)
S-2 Prototype
Hull: 274 (137)
Shield: 540 (270)
S2 Cruiser
Buildtime: 88s (70s)
Bomber Prototype
Hull: 226 (113)
Shield: 448 (224)
C11 Interceptor Prototype
Hull: 100 (67)
Shield: 200 (133)
C11 Interceptor
Hull: +50%
Shield: +50%
Ketracel Mining Station - vulnerable to shield piercing weapons.
Dilithium: 365 (522)
Tritanium: 200 (286)
Supply: 10 (15)
Hull: 242 (484)

posted on June 21st, 2012, 7:36 pm

Some of the changes seem a bit drastical in the beginning but we can lower them if needed. Thr reason for some major changes is that I want that people use underrated things more often to see how that works.

Installation is simple...just follow the general instructions in the FO guide

posted on June 22nd, 2012, 2:28 am

Be it successful or not, I have to say, I appreciate that Drrrrr is willing to put in the effort to do something about what he feels passionate about as opposed to just talking about it.

posted on June 22nd, 2012, 5:00 am

Be it successful or not, I have to say, I appreciate that Drrrrr is willing to put in the effort to do something about what he feels passionate about as opposed to just talking about it.

I to am also impressed...

posted on July 2nd, 2012, 6:22 pm

The effort is limited by my off times and since most ppl are either not willing or available to test the changes, the whole approach is doomed to fail. I'm not going to invest time into this further...the community is too small to get testing up with reasonable effort. Sorry.

posted on July 2nd, 2012, 6:29 pm

If you want to bring together a balancing team, you have to work to organize one . I don't think it's reasonable to expect that everybody is willing right away to help you, if you only have a few minutes of time to wait. Be patient, send people messages, and organize it so that you all have time to meet together .

posted on July 2nd, 2012, 6:32 pm

What do you expect would happen?

You did not start a topic for volunteers, instead you just joined Tunngle randomly, looking for testers, when 3 games where going, and the other 2 people besides you were obviously not interested or didn't even know what you're talking about.

What you should have done, as already mentioned, is looking out for them, adding them, start communicating, make a time and place when your tests will happen, expecting that everyone will stop what they're doing once you join doesn't make any sense and is fully delusional.

It takes a more serious effort than editing a dozen text files and then showing up randomly once every few weeks.


Anyways, i really hoped you changed, and for not disturbing your effort i didn't intervene, but i kinda saw this coming

posted on July 2nd, 2012, 8:28 pm

[...]expecting that everyone will stop what they're doing once you join doesn't make any sense and is fully delusional.
It takes a more serious effort than editing a dozen text files and then showing up randomly once every few weeks.
Anyways, i really hoped you changed, and for not disturbing your effort i didn't intervene, but i kinda saw this coming

Thanks for the clarification of what I did, you summed that up really well. I guess you are the one that observed most of what I did and what not.
I also thank you for your recommendations, they are always welcome, especially if noone asks for them.
It is true that I'm not serious in this whole matter. To be honest, I'm too stupid to do these things right...I lack organization and communication abilities and lack overall understanding of complex systems (such as FO)...

By the way, may I ask what your profession is? Professional background etc. that enables YOU to give overall recommendations of this kind to other people?

posted on July 2nd, 2012, 9:12 pm

Thanks for the clarification of what I did,...

No problem, you're welcome!

...the rest of the sarcasm...

Maybe you finally realized that it takes more effort than just starting a topic and hope that everyone will always be ready and waiting for you.

There are some replies here by some shiny people incl. many suggestions, which you possibly based some of your edits on. You wan't to get your balancing mod go further?

Then you need to do more and put more effort in it, or find people who are willing to.

It took you years to finally start one of these, and to see you not finishing this wasn't surprising, but giving up that fast is quite unexpected, even disappointing, and has btw. NOTHING to do with the size or the community at all.

Only one sad thing i can see here: getting people started for something, and then not being persistent enough to plan one test run, and then blaming everyone else - ridiculous.

recommendations of this kind to other people?

Not other, just you, and just this topic.
I tried to be nice, i tried even to reach out and help you with some of your "this is all so op" concerns / problems, i tried the "i just don't say anything and enjoy the show" part, and now i try it your way, "being a b...." well, not worth it, take care

posted on July 2nd, 2012, 10:56 pm

Well Drrrr I know you for a pretty long time but I'm afraid I've clearly to agree with "beserene". By the way you did ask him what qualifies him to give you constant suggestions. Well he is part of the closed Beta test team. So he knows his stuff almost as good as Dominus does so I would listen to him if I would be you.

Anyway blaming others or saying the size of the community is responsible that you stop working on your patch is clearly a joke & you can't be really serious about that or?

I mean what do you expect that people start running, letting everything drop just because you show up? Till today I had even no freaking idea that you were working on an unofficial patch. It's sad dude 'cause I probably would have supported you but then I didn't know about it and you can't test stuff properly in 2v2 , 4v4 matches that's what you wished for earlier today in tunngle. In order to test things good. You'll have to test in 1v1 situations period.

Anyway I agree with Dominus you should have gathered a small test community around you. Because without that it can't function and also not everybody is really qualified as a beta tester keep that in mind. People need a certain skill level & a basic understanding of how things work in Fleet Ops if they don't possess that then they're unqualified.

What ever seeing how your project ended already states that your energy put into probably wasn't enough not even close. Therefore the old saying counts "You can't miss what you don't know." I wont miss it. It's sad but true. In the future you should also check in on saturday or sunday most people are on during that time but not in the middle of the week when we have to work. Most of us aren't visiting the school anymore.

best thing to do is just to wait till Dominus and his minions bring us the next version. As for the balance itself not a single ship in Fleet Ops is overpowered. For a while I also more than once said
"Oh this and that is overpowered."
but then I started to ask questions to people which are working on the balancing for FO and they explained me exactly what works good against what. So Lehval spam wont threaten me anymore these days. I strongly suggest you to do the same. Read the guide ask questions. It helps a lot.

FO is just more than that typical "stone-scissor-paper" Principe themed game. It also requires you to adapt to enemy strategies and situations as well as some skill in the micromanagement sector. With that in mind I let you alone now and wish you a good night and good luck in the future.

posted on July 3rd, 2012, 6:56 am

I really don't get why you two think that I didn't consider putting more effort in it by building a testing team...It was considered as this is the trivial answer to the question how it can be realized. But due to my limited spare time I cannot maintain a team for testing of a patch that will be obsolet in a few months.
People asked me to do something about what I was requesting for some time (not for years kamk, but you cant know cause you are here for only 1 year...see account info).
Also it is not true that community size doesn't influence activities like a community patch (kamk and 23 please be more serious on your own)...it is so obvious that it is indeed the case or do I have to explain the difference between 10 and 100 players online...

So Lehval spam wont threaten me anymore these days. I strongly suggest you to do the same. Read the guide ask questions. It helps a lot.

So why dont you share your findings? What does Dominion do against Leavhal spam?

Not other, just you, and just this topic.
I tried to be nice, i tried even to reach out and help you with some of your "this is all so op" concerns / problems, i tried the "i just don't say anything and enjoy the show" part, and now i try it your way, "being a b...." well, not worth it, take care

Please answer the initial question...what is your profession? MAybe that helps me to understand why you are responding this way...

By the way you did ask him what qualifies him to give you constant suggestions. Well he is part of the closed Beta test team. So he knows his stuff almost as good as Dominus does so I would listen to him if I would be you

I'm not impressed at all. Kamk has shown great "skill" in using strong strats against people like Fed spam and scube rushes. I have never seen him in 1v1 (I remember he doesnt play 1v1 at all, is that true?). Being in the dev team is not necessarily an expression of skill...there are other people around that can play better (and I don't necessarily refer to myself). Maybe he just talked after Dominus arguing style and was picked as one that is not going to make much trouble. Could also be a good decision from the point of the devs...we never know.

Most of us aren't visiting the school anymore.

Me neither...and since I'm working in a project management position in int. research, I can say that my spare-time is not that high as well.

posted on July 3rd, 2012, 8:54 am

But due to my limited spare time I cannot maintain a team for testing

So why didn't you just say so in the first place?
Why blaming others?
FYI: when i had to do some testing, or was interested in how something could work out, i could find people quite easily - so i highly doubt it's a community problem in general. On the contrary: in the FOPS community i found the most people very helpful.

of a patch that will be obsolet in a few months.

Why starting this in the first place?
What about the experience you gain?
Don't you think you have to have at least a bit of experience in balancing to back up your own assumptions?

(not for years kamk, but you cant know cause you are here for only 1 year...see account info).

Forum account creation =/= "being around since", it's an indicator, but doesn't grant you anything.
Just btw.: accounts from Dom AND 23 are each 3 (!) years older than yours.
Should make their points more valid with your reasoning, but you seem not to listen to them either.
Oh, and i'm certainly sure i'm longer around on the internet, RTS games, and this planet than you are... hope you see that doesn't make any good argument at all.
Just being longer around somewhere doesn't mean you got any more experience at all.
Except you consider the old cleaning gal who works part time as your boss.

Also it is not true that community size doesn't influence activities...

It will makes things harder, but not impossible, especially balancing wise you have to start duel wise. And another player you may find 24/7 in Tunngle. And read above: you have to plan such tests. Yesterday a dozen players were online, and i think besides me nobody even knew what you were talking about.
I hope you see the problem here.
The effort here starts with starting a new topic for meetings, writing personal messages, or joining teamspeak and ask around. Doesn't matter if there are 10 or 90 people that don't know you, nor this attempt. And of course you will have some days where nothing is getting done. Giving up after ten minutes of asking on Tunngle - who are you kidding, seriously.

... some polemic arguments and discrediting...

Anyways, if you want me to duel you, or show you how to counter xyz - be my guest. I already offered you this plenty of times btw., and so did others who are even more skilled duel wise.
Leahval spam for an example doesn't bother me at all as well, except Dragonfire does it, and he kinda deserves to win with it after training it to perfection (not saying i don't agree with you on the Leahval part, except i wouldn't say it's op, it's just too versatile). Same goes for OTP and his fancy Borg same strat on Duel II, and so on. But when some beginner tries it, he will mostly fail against any good opponent.
These people put some effort and brain into it, and deserve to be that good with it.
Maybe ask some people like WarpCore, Jynx, and Cyrax how they got the conclusion on how to beat my k'tinga spam, while some others still say it's op.

...I'm working in a project management...

Again, a community. I assume you do know how to plan a project, then you should realize that you can't just pop up randomly and assume that everyone will be there, just waiting for you to lead them to whatever. In a company that might work, but here it won't without even having volunteers.

what is your profession? Maybe that helps me to understand why you are responding this way...

What has this to do with anything of your complaints about balancing?
I could ask you if you had intercourse the last months, that would help me understanding why you behave like that in the first place - by your logic.
Some people tried to help you in the past, including me, and every time you stick to your blame on balancing / game mechanics. First ask, then listen, and finally understand. Don't start with complaining.



Last but not least, explained it before, trying it once more:
if you got a problem with a certain faction, or strategy, ask players who do know how to beat it, or figure it out with the guide and such players with any way you wish. Don't just assume it's op, ask yourself (and especially others) if you could have done anything different.
Of course not everyone has the time and will to put more effort into his own gameplay, but small hints, again: if you listen, will have great impact and make things way easier for you.
There are certain lineups that are quite annoying, but i haven't seen any RTS game where such thing isn't common, on the contrary: it's usually way more hard countered - aka "must do's or die". Same with how you will have to play vs. a specific faction or player.

My offer still stands btw.
this post is dedicated to Myles, it is a true wall of text

posted on July 3rd, 2012, 1:08 pm

Giving up after ten minutes of asking on Tunngle - who are you kidding, seriously.

As I said before, you are not in the position to know what I tried and what not unless you are 24/7 in tunngle.

Leahval spam for an example doesn't bother me at all as well, except Dragonfire does it, and he kinda deserves to win with it after training it to perfection (not saying i don't agree with you on the Leahval part, except i wouldn't say it's op, it's just too versatile). Same goes for OTP and his fancy Borg same strat on Duel II, and so on. But when some beginner tries it, he will mostly fail against any good opponent.
These people put some effort and brain into it, and deserve to be that good with it.

Dragonfire and OTP are just people that don't make so many mistakes in micro and macro like many others...thats why they can abuse the power strats. Of course, if you have apple and pear players that are different, a Leavhals spam might not be the reason for a win or a loss but many other factors. But in the case of experienced players most of them go with power strats to win. AND this is not because they use their brain LOL, they know that other approaches are less efficient, thats the biggest part. But how much brain power does it take to conclude that?

We can start here in the sense that you beat both players as named above with Dominion. If you do that with your brain power, we can further discuss. I'll try to be up the coming days to have some 1v1s with you as well...

But one thing is still missing after all...what your professional background is or, to make it more clear, what your educational level is...since this HAS indeed influence on your general capability to judge about complex issues. But I guess I might have my answer here already since you avoid the question...

posted on July 3rd, 2012, 9:56 pm

As I said before, you are not in the position to know what I tried and what not unless you are 24/7 in tunngle.

And again, you don't listen...

... can abuse the power strats.

These "power strats" have been discovered and perfected by these players, like many other things as well. Those are basically strong starts with a lot of micro training on some specific units, nothing else, they don't grant you a win. If something would be "overpowered" then it could be executed by every newbie and grant an easy win over another strong buildup, but it doesn't.

...experienced players most of them go with power strats to win.

Again, not power strats, solid build ups with perfected gameplay.
You should try another RTS and see how Pros play these games, let's even say StarCraft which has possibly the most competitive players RTS wise, and very likely most effort in balancing. You will see the same behavior: solid build ups, mostly "do or die" strats. Those people train one buildup vs another hundreds of times, if one of them doesn't train it, he will lose - same in FOPS. Example: OTP has trained his Borg gameplay on Duel II to a very high level, others mostly didn't keep up. Doesn't make his solid buildup and micro overpowered, just making others less competitive. If anyone could do it easily, even against people who got a solid gameplay, then it's really a problem - which is not the case. Slight imbalances are always there, nothing you can do about it except testing it with millions of people over and over again - even in major RTS games some balancing issues remain to be further tested for years.

...this is not because they use their brain LOL...

Finding a way to win or a strategy opponents can't adapt for quite a while isn't as easy as you think - this includes thinking.
Patch was quite new as well, there was a tourney, some people got competitive, of course they stick to basics they know best instead of throwing away wins.

... they know that other approaches are less efficient...

Again, you don't listen. Solid buildups. It's not intended in any RTS to build whatever you want and get away with it, plus see above.

But one thing is still missing after all...what your professional background is or, to make it more clear, what your educational level is...since this HAS indeed influence on your general capability to judge about complex issues. But I guess I might have my answer here already since you avoid the question...

You want my birth certificate too?



Remember what you've written recently to Dominus btw?
Let me refresh your memory:

Maybe you should start to act/play instead of sitting around watching...

Does the bell ring now?

There you can experience balance issues and more first hand.

Now?

Instead you claim to know something about FO from the calculations you do and the few games you play

Still nothing?

(doesnt matter how long you are around in sum)

THIS is btw. my absolute favorite part

and maybe what you pick up from the devs. However, that is merely eneough to judge about balance and its hardly enough to give strategic advice to people.

Well, i guess you just can't hear it.



Let me sum this up for you:
You started this with a lot of discrediting and polemic arguments, you got the the attention you seeked, you mentioned you even do project management in real life, and nothing got managed or done at all - no idea why you mentioned it in the first place, kinda makes your situation even worse.

Could go on, but i feel like talking to a tree...