Dominion - balance issues - the C11 and the A20
posted on June 8th, 2009, 5:24 pm
First off, Excellent job on 3.07. 
One minor point, though, about the Jem A 20 ram and the C-11 destroyer.
1. Bug Rams:
The ram against stations was certainly to have been reduced from 3.06. However, at this time I feel it has been reduced by too much.
At this time a successful ram does not: 1. always deal damage and
2. does 5 points to a mining station and 1-2 to a shipyard.
This is a bit too little IMO. We are sacrificing a ship after all, and the self-destruction of a bug early on in game is easily compensated for by the other guy hitting back with his early ships to take out ur bases.
IMO the A20 ram against a mining station should do about 10 points damage not 5. Previously it did 51 so of course that was a touch much. But 10-15 sounds reasonable.
Against a basic yard it should do 5-10 damage, as it previously did 25.
Against an advanced yard or Sbase it ought to do 5-1 units of damage.
The reason behind this is that an a-20 does cost resources to build (be it less than the other first line ships). It also plays a defensive role early-mid game.
When playing against roms, klings and feds the bugs if used to ram stations, leave the player defenseless in any case, and will allow the rommie/feddie/kling to counter attack and destroy the dom stations in retaliation.
The main point of contention is that the Bug can be spammed, and hence there is a danger that the ram can be overdone.
However, this contention is based more on fear than actual gameplay.
If we look at the dominion pure tech with 25% speed increase, we are able to pump out about 5 bugs for every 3 rhienns, 4 bops and 3 sabres. Even if the romulan player were to wait 10 bugs that are needed to take out a mining station by pure ram would be near impossible to spam and still have a fleet that can resist the enemy's coutner attack.
IMO we should therefore not nert the A-20 ram but balance it out not to allow the spam of 2 bugs per mining, but to still allow the ram against the station to have some effect.
2. C-11 Cascade Feedback:
Dont know if this has been raised already, but IMO the C-11 cascade is a bit spammy now. I can use the cascade feedback of about 7-8 C-11s to simply destroy a sov by virtue of the beam.
We may want to re-consider how this works.
IMO, it would be a viable solution to reduce the damage caused by the cascade feedback per instance used within the same period of time.
Meaning if I use the cascade feedback fom 3 ships simultaneously the damage of each wave is directly proportionate to the time between it and its successor.
So if 3 waves hit simultaneously the aggregate damage is 0. If we use them separately the damage inflicted by teh subsequent wave increases to full strength once a period of x secs passes between the 2 hits on the same hull.
this will retain the concept of the S-20 where u cant use 6 S20 Kcel boosters simultaneously and obtain 45%x6 increase in firepower, but will still allow for each cascade to do damage in proportion to the time at which it has been fired... a kind of diminishing returns till cooldown time has been reached.
ideas?
One minor point, though, about the Jem A 20 ram and the C-11 destroyer.
1. Bug Rams:
The ram against stations was certainly to have been reduced from 3.06. However, at this time I feel it has been reduced by too much.
At this time a successful ram does not: 1. always deal damage and
2. does 5 points to a mining station and 1-2 to a shipyard.
This is a bit too little IMO. We are sacrificing a ship after all, and the self-destruction of a bug early on in game is easily compensated for by the other guy hitting back with his early ships to take out ur bases.
IMO the A20 ram against a mining station should do about 10 points damage not 5. Previously it did 51 so of course that was a touch much. But 10-15 sounds reasonable.
Against a basic yard it should do 5-10 damage, as it previously did 25.
Against an advanced yard or Sbase it ought to do 5-1 units of damage.
The reason behind this is that an a-20 does cost resources to build (be it less than the other first line ships). It also plays a defensive role early-mid game.
When playing against roms, klings and feds the bugs if used to ram stations, leave the player defenseless in any case, and will allow the rommie/feddie/kling to counter attack and destroy the dom stations in retaliation.
The main point of contention is that the Bug can be spammed, and hence there is a danger that the ram can be overdone.
However, this contention is based more on fear than actual gameplay.
If we look at the dominion pure tech with 25% speed increase, we are able to pump out about 5 bugs for every 3 rhienns, 4 bops and 3 sabres. Even if the romulan player were to wait 10 bugs that are needed to take out a mining station by pure ram would be near impossible to spam and still have a fleet that can resist the enemy's coutner attack.
IMO we should therefore not nert the A-20 ram but balance it out not to allow the spam of 2 bugs per mining, but to still allow the ram against the station to have some effect.
2. C-11 Cascade Feedback:
Dont know if this has been raised already, but IMO the C-11 cascade is a bit spammy now. I can use the cascade feedback of about 7-8 C-11s to simply destroy a sov by virtue of the beam.
We may want to re-consider how this works.
IMO, it would be a viable solution to reduce the damage caused by the cascade feedback per instance used within the same period of time.
Meaning if I use the cascade feedback fom 3 ships simultaneously the damage of each wave is directly proportionate to the time between it and its successor.
So if 3 waves hit simultaneously the aggregate damage is 0. If we use them separately the damage inflicted by teh subsequent wave increases to full strength once a period of x secs passes between the 2 hits on the same hull.
this will retain the concept of the S-20 where u cant use 6 S20 Kcel boosters simultaneously and obtain 45%x6 increase in firepower, but will still allow for each cascade to do damage in proportion to the time at which it has been fired... a kind of diminishing returns till cooldown time has been reached.
ideas?
posted on June 8th, 2009, 6:04 pm
Yep, cascade feedback - like most support abilities - will get redos either way in the next patch 
posted on June 8th, 2009, 7:42 pm
cool. thnx as always
posted on June 8th, 2009, 7:52 pm
I just think its damage should be reduced, other than that it works fine right now IMO.
Maybe another way to implement it would be (since its supposed to damage subsystems) to destroy 1 random subsystem per ship for X ammount of seconds. Though doing this with 8 C11s might be unbalanced too lol. Dunno the dam reduce is best IMO.
Also why did no one anwser my post when I posted the same thing several hours ago?
Maybe another way to implement it would be (since its supposed to damage subsystems) to destroy 1 random subsystem per ship for X ammount of seconds. Though doing this with 8 C11s might be unbalanced too lol. Dunno the dam reduce is best IMO.
Also why did no one anwser my post when I posted the same thing several hours ago?
posted on June 8th, 2009, 8:09 pm
Hehe sorry, no offense was intended 
We are planing some redos on most support vessels in order to make them more interessting. Cascade feedback itself will probably stay similar to the way it is now, but the damage formula will be rescaled, probably to something similar to other area effect weapons. i will take a look at that later this month
We are planing some redos on most support vessels in order to make them more interessting. Cascade feedback itself will probably stay similar to the way it is now, but the damage formula will be rescaled, probably to something similar to other area effect weapons. i will take a look at that later this month
posted on June 8th, 2009, 8:17 pm
-=B!G=-The Black Baron wrote:
Also why did no one anwser my post when I posted the same thing several hours ago?
Are those cloning facilities on Rondac III ready now?
posted on June 8th, 2009, 8:23 pm
posted on June 8th, 2009, 9:40 pm
refer to memory-alpha
posted on June 8th, 2009, 10:22 pm
The invalid cascade damage is actually a bug, i just checked it and found a few issues, i will prepare a fix this week 
posted on June 8th, 2009, 10:30 pm
cool. thanks Optec.
posted on June 12th, 2009, 12:50 am
Nice job Optec
Why wouldnt you just tell me instead?
refer to memory-alpha Smiley
Why wouldnt you just tell me instead?
posted on June 12th, 2009, 12:55 am
Man, now the fun's passed. You let this lie for so long now there's no fun in it 
In any case, Rondac 3 was where the Weyoun cloning facilities were. After the destruction of those facilities by Damar, the Founder could not get rid of the malfunctioning Weyoun, and kept asking when the facilities would be ready..
it was a part of the humour that was assigned to the interaction between the Founder and Weyoun.
In any case, Rondac 3 was where the Weyoun cloning facilities were. After the destruction of those facilities by Damar, the Founder could not get rid of the malfunctioning Weyoun, and kept asking when the facilities would be ready..
it was a part of the humour that was assigned to the interaction between the Founder and Weyoun.
posted on June 12th, 2009, 10:17 am
LoL, well there are too many things to check on these forums. I honestly forgot about it
Though, I didnt know about the Rondac 3 thingies - you learn something new every day
Though, I didnt know about the Rondac 3 thingies - you learn something new every day
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