Cloak Detection Alterations
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posted on January 21st, 2010, 10:29 pm
Be warned, this is a combination of a game balancing post and a feature request 
Right now we have a stationary Tachyon ping, a researchable Graviton Detection, which can be placed anywhere on the map, and an Intelligence Report. Dominion can use the Graviton detection net 4x, Klingons 1x, Federation 2x, and Romulan 3x roughly from ONE rather cheap station.
From 3.0.7 we thus got a few changes: the passive tachyon scan pings and can miss and has a smaller radius, allowing ships to escape, and the Graviton detection grid gets a larger radius and detects all ships, but has more limited uses.
Although these changes might seem to be large and benefit cloaking factions, I don't think they are big enough changes and in fact may have made cloaking occasionally less effective (as now you no longer have to cancel production or wait for something to finish in order to detect your opponent’s units). SO, PLEASE, put aside the current imbalances with Klingons and Romulans and think about the long term cloaking issues (Breen don’t count, as frankly they move so slow they are detected immediately – something that should be fixed if you read further down.
In the beginning stages of a game, using cloaking is effective everywhere. However, as soon as the graviton net is researched, it become extremely difficult to make any strikes at all, just like in 3.0.7 and before. In fact, I’d argue it become more dangerous, because there is no warning from the tooltip or ship stats that you have been detected (and that you should drop cloak and raise shields – unlike previously where you knew you had been detected by your shields having been raised). Likewise, your ships are completely unshielded, and thus easy prey. Furthermore, the Borg are almost immune to hit and run cloaking in the early stages because the Probe comes standard with the graviton net (although not the passive Tachyon ping). All you need are a few Scout Cubes and 1-2 Probes, and cloaking to escape becomes impossible. Likewise, with the Dominion’s new found energy reserves one or two sensor stations can now be used to cover entire bases or passages, granting them a huge boon because each sensor stations can use the Graviton net 4x. I know that this was done in the interests of game diversity (as the stations cost more), but it has also come with some repercussions. Likewise, when two Dominion sensor stations are built next to each other, it can become impossible to venture through safely if the build times are coordinated carefully (as ping might be every 5 seconds or so, and since it also lasts for a time…)
Lastly, to appeal to the more Star Trek side of things, graviton pings have never been able to be deployed from anywhere on a map – they were always isolated to around specific stations or ships. So the Graviton net as it currently is not “canon” (whatever that means)
As a consequence, “I” propose that for starters the Graviton net ability be completely scrapped in the form that it is now. I will elaborate on this in a little bit.
Instead, of the Graviton research we would get several tiers of research available at the respective science stations. The size of each diameter for the sentry posts “Tachyon ping” for each faction would be altered to be larger (perhaps by 25% for two times) and then the ping rate could also be changed. Perhaps from every 10 seconds, to every 8 and then to every 6.
The second change would be to make it so that each sensor station cannot be built adjacent to the next one, but have to be at least “medium” range away from each other (perhaps Dominion being further apart). This would allow one to take out sensor nets more easily, as redundancy is not as feasible. This goes for Borg sensor relays that are “laid” by ships (which make cloaking or retreating while cloaking absolutely impossible incidentally). Likewise, this would mean that that it is not feasible for much overlap between sensor stations, which in turn means that ping is still important in later game and can be avoided when more sensor stations have been put down.
Intelligence Report would remain as is (potentially a cost increase, but not that big a deal).
The third change would be to alleviate the removal of the Graviton net, and instead place importance on units for making detection nets – just like during the Klingon civil war! For each faction, a minimum of two units would have tachyon detection– like what is seen either on the current Canaveral as well as Talon sensor refit. The reason behind two units, is that in the early game a weak slow unit like the Canaveral is fine, but in the later part of the game the unit is the first to be targeted and destroyed.
Consequently we would have something like this:
Federation: Canaveral, Excelsior II
Romulan: Talon Sensor Refit, D’deridex, unrefitted Generix (as it is still almost not used at all) – 3 because they are the masters of cloak
Klingon: K’beajQ and QaW’duj
Dominion: S-2 Escort Cruiser, V-13 Battleship
The Tachyon Ping available from these units could be of different diameters between units. Perhaps the weaker early game vessel gets a larger tachyon ping. In either case, the Ping would cost most of the energy resources of the vessel and thus make it more of a “choice” between using the special abilities of the unit in question, or its special scan. I think only the Sensor Refit should stay with a passive ability to detect as it is easily killed and cannot stand on its own.
So to summarize, the changes would be to remove graviton net, give additional tachyon ping researches and put more on units. This should have the effect of making BortaS and Tavara scarier, as well as make Breen and some slower Romulan unit’s cloaks useful now, as the only reason that it does not completely destroy Klingon gameplay is because those ships are fast and can get out of range. (Romies and Breen usually cannot escape from Graviton, asides from the Leahval and Shrike).
Right now we have a stationary Tachyon ping, a researchable Graviton Detection, which can be placed anywhere on the map, and an Intelligence Report. Dominion can use the Graviton detection net 4x, Klingons 1x, Federation 2x, and Romulan 3x roughly from ONE rather cheap station.
From 3.0.7 we thus got a few changes: the passive tachyon scan pings and can miss and has a smaller radius, allowing ships to escape, and the Graviton detection grid gets a larger radius and detects all ships, but has more limited uses.
Although these changes might seem to be large and benefit cloaking factions, I don't think they are big enough changes and in fact may have made cloaking occasionally less effective (as now you no longer have to cancel production or wait for something to finish in order to detect your opponent’s units). SO, PLEASE, put aside the current imbalances with Klingons and Romulans and think about the long term cloaking issues (Breen don’t count, as frankly they move so slow they are detected immediately – something that should be fixed if you read further down
.In the beginning stages of a game, using cloaking is effective everywhere. However, as soon as the graviton net is researched, it become extremely difficult to make any strikes at all, just like in 3.0.7 and before. In fact, I’d argue it become more dangerous, because there is no warning from the tooltip or ship stats that you have been detected (and that you should drop cloak and raise shields – unlike previously where you knew you had been detected by your shields having been raised). Likewise, your ships are completely unshielded, and thus easy prey. Furthermore, the Borg are almost immune to hit and run cloaking in the early stages because the Probe comes standard with the graviton net (although not the passive Tachyon ping). All you need are a few Scout Cubes and 1-2 Probes, and cloaking to escape becomes impossible. Likewise, with the Dominion’s new found energy reserves one or two sensor stations can now be used to cover entire bases or passages, granting them a huge boon because each sensor stations can use the Graviton net 4x. I know that this was done in the interests of game diversity (as the stations cost more), but it has also come with some repercussions. Likewise, when two Dominion sensor stations are built next to each other, it can become impossible to venture through safely if the build times are coordinated carefully (as ping might be every 5 seconds or so, and since it also lasts for a time…)
Lastly, to appeal to the more Star Trek side of things, graviton pings have never been able to be deployed from anywhere on a map – they were always isolated to around specific stations or ships. So the Graviton net as it currently is not “canon” (whatever that means)
As a consequence, “I” propose that for starters the Graviton net ability be completely scrapped in the form that it is now. I will elaborate on this in a little bit
.Instead, of the Graviton research we would get several tiers of research available at the respective science stations. The size of each diameter for the sentry posts “Tachyon ping” for each faction would be altered to be larger (perhaps by 25% for two times) and then the ping rate could also be changed. Perhaps from every 10 seconds, to every 8 and then to every 6.
The second change would be to make it so that each sensor station cannot be built adjacent to the next one, but have to be at least “medium” range away from each other (perhaps Dominion being further apart). This would allow one to take out sensor nets more easily, as redundancy is not as feasible. This goes for Borg sensor relays that are “laid” by ships (which make cloaking or retreating while cloaking absolutely impossible incidentally). Likewise, this would mean that that it is not feasible for much overlap between sensor stations, which in turn means that ping is still important in later game and can be avoided when more sensor stations have been put down.
Intelligence Report would remain as is (potentially a cost increase, but not that big a deal).
The third change would be to alleviate the removal of the Graviton net, and instead place importance on units for making detection nets – just like during the Klingon civil war! For each faction, a minimum of two units would have tachyon detection– like what is seen either on the current Canaveral as well as Talon sensor refit. The reason behind two units, is that in the early game a weak slow unit like the Canaveral is fine, but in the later part of the game the unit is the first to be targeted and destroyed.
Consequently we would have something like this:
Federation: Canaveral, Excelsior II
Romulan: Talon Sensor Refit, D’deridex, unrefitted Generix (as it is still almost not used at all) – 3 because they are the masters of cloak
Klingon: K’beajQ and QaW’duj
Dominion: S-2 Escort Cruiser, V-13 Battleship
The Tachyon Ping available from these units could be of different diameters between units. Perhaps the weaker early game vessel gets a larger tachyon ping. In either case, the Ping would cost most of the energy resources of the vessel and thus make it more of a “choice” between using the special abilities of the unit in question, or its special scan. I think only the Sensor Refit should stay with a passive ability to detect as it is easily killed and cannot stand on its own.
So to summarize, the changes would be to remove graviton net, give additional tachyon ping researches and put more on units. This should have the effect of making BortaS and Tavara scarier, as well as make Breen and some slower Romulan unit’s cloaks useful now, as the only reason that it does not completely destroy Klingon gameplay is because those ships are fast and can get out of range. (Romies and Breen usually cannot escape from Graviton, asides from the Leahval and Shrike).
posted on January 21st, 2010, 10:44 pm
100% agreed 
posted on January 21st, 2010, 11:09 pm
yep i have also noticed that the tachyon scan might be a bit too god at the moment, i will take a look into some changes for that in the future
posted on January 22nd, 2010, 1:07 am
posted on January 22nd, 2010, 1:23 am
Should have mentioned that in addition if the graviton net was being removed, the current size of the tachyon pings should be enlarged
posted on January 22nd, 2010, 1:34 am
Good analysis dominus.
Just one thing: I would not give the Tachyon scanner to such often used ships like the Excelsior 2 , the S-2 Escort cruiser or the V-13. It's a little unmotivatet, why these ships should have it. I'd rahter give it to special ships (e.g. the Phalanx, the Nebula, the Defender,...) or a special refit of these ships (if you like, a Excelsior scout refit), so they suffer stats reduction in exchange.
Just one thing: I would not give the Tachyon scanner to such often used ships like the Excelsior 2 , the S-2 Escort cruiser or the V-13. It's a little unmotivatet, why these ships should have it. I'd rahter give it to special ships (e.g. the Phalanx, the Nebula, the Defender,...) or a special refit of these ships (if you like, a Excelsior scout refit), so they suffer stats reduction in exchange.
Dave Denton
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 9:17 pm
Last edited by Dave Denton on March 2nd, 2010, 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 9:26 pm
This is a thread about cloak detection, not the Romulan Intelligence center. 
Also, can you explain why something has to be canon to be in FO?
Also, can you explain why something has to be canon to be in FO?
Dave Denton
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 9:28 pm
Last edited by Dave Denton on March 2nd, 2010, 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 9:38 pm
I think I see what you were trying to get across. I think the canon element thing was to stave off those who are really gung-ho about canon, but would be resistant to the idea of the graviton ping being changed. Dom, I, and others are less interested in "canon" (so long as something is reasonably plausible and has the "spirit" of Trek in mind, I'm good with it) as we are with good gameplay. But not everyone would agree with that. The forums are definitely made up of people who have differing ideas of what FO should be. Dom was trying to explain it in a way that would make sense to the people who want the game to be good, and also try and be on the same page as die hard followers of Star Trek canon. His main point was to change detection so that you're not screwed if you try to retreat under cloak, which is what happens now in mulitplayer games.
I'm still not sure about the Intelligence Center, I don't see that mentioned anywhere, but hopefully that answers your other question.
I'm still not sure about the Intelligence Center, I don't see that mentioned anywhere, but hopefully that answers your other question.
Dave Denton
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 9:43 pm
Last edited by Dave Denton on March 2nd, 2010, 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 10:07 pm
Probably Intelligence Report could be anything from a great spy network, to even just checking "moving graviton pulses" ... or something 
. Who knows, maybe there is some backstory in FO about it (remember that FO relies a lot on "real world" stuff and not purely on the really vague Startrek "phantasy science" that pops up more and more frequently) - but I bet you can just explain that through some vague system of spies available to all factions. Graviton detection however is a bit odd both in what we've seen on the shows and overall balancing. To be honest, I think that the Graviton Detection grid that is on the Hyperspace station is most realistic - as it is not some god power that can go anywhere on the map. Either way though, cloak detection is getting some changes which I bet will make it more fun
. Who knows, maybe there is some backstory in FO about it (remember that FO relies a lot on "real world" stuff and not purely on the really vague Startrek "phantasy science" that pops up more and more frequently) - but I bet you can just explain that through some vague system of spies available to all factions. Graviton detection however is a bit odd both in what we've seen on the shows and overall balancing. To be honest, I think that the Graviton Detection grid that is on the Hyperspace station is most realistic - as it is not some god power that can go anywhere on the map. Either way though, cloak detection is getting some changes which I bet will make it more fun Dave Denton
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 10:44 pm
Last edited by Dave Denton on March 2nd, 2010, 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I would love to hear about it, about Intelligence Report .... explain it with "real stuff".
Don't say something like "something"
Don't say something like "something
"
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 11:00 pm
sensor stations should "level up" the longer they are on the field, so when first build their detection range is small and gets bigger as they stay on the field longer, instead of having dominion huge sensor radius while other species range is tiny. 
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 11:06 pm
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