Borg beams useless

posted on March 4th, 2009, 4:22 pm

Cutting beam

posted on March 4th, 2009, 7:13 pm

turned the saucers into pancakes  . Imagine that!

(by the way, I said pancakes because the cutting beam sliced through them like knives through, well, pancakes.)

posted on March 4th, 2009, 10:19 pm

Cutting beam

not the one on sisko's ship itself. there were beams used. one cutting beam hit a ship's nacelle support and cut that off. we saw that.
there was another beam that blasted a ship like a phaser. look at the sequence where the ships are swarming the cube.
if they're all cutting beams, then every beam we see is a cutting beam 

posted on March 4th, 2009, 10:28 pm

but these are mere semantics.
we have a borg ship that in game has beams.

If we have not seen a borg beam in use in any series, then allowing themto have beams here in game is a mistake, and the beam option should be removed.

If so, then we can focus on amping up the torp rate of fire on borg ships, and allow the sphere to have a few more torps and get rid of beams all together.

with that we should then allow the holding beam to transport more troops over, and certainly since the borg assimilate, the rate of take over should be 8 crew for every 5 transported.
and certainly, about 10 borg drones should be transported per sec for 1 assimilator beam on board.

Also, the cutting beam then should be allowed to target multiple targets the way the beams currently do.
And we can get rid of beams altogether.

however, i do not understand where we would arrive at the conclusion that the borg do not use beams - or that those beams should be weak:

Borg cube - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
In addition, a Borg cube's weaponry also included disruptor beams and torpedoes. During the 2366-2367 incursion, a cube obliterated three ships of the Mars Defense Perimeter with torpedoes. The concentrated fire of three Borg disruptor beams was able to reduce USS Voyager's ablative generator-deployed armor hull integrity, a highly advanced future Starfleet defense technology, to 40%. (VOY: "Endgame")

posted on March 4th, 2009, 11:06 pm

I think it might be intentional, as a balance to the fact that borg go through shields like nobody's business (cube torpedoes, and every single ship has devastating attack).  I agree that it'd be nice to see the borg with useful beam weapons though, even if it meant less powerful torpedoes; in fact, I can't recall a time I've ever seen the Borg using torpedoes in any series (although I might just not be remembering so well).  The beam weapons were much more prominent.

we can balance with rate of fire if needed. and last I saw, the borg fire much slower than the other races. the feds get out about 6 or 7 torps by the time the borg get off about 1 or 2.
So certanily balancing is working in that regard.

And frankly it would not be an issue, if the borg were not bogged down by resource gathering rate, and resource consumption of each construct.
Plus the amount of time it tkaes to finally get cubes.

Spheres are weaker than even assimilators since they rely primarily on beams, and this is what kinda crimps borg gameplay.
Havent played a real player, but when playing the AI, when I engage the vast numbers they have by the time I get my spheres (usually have a fleet of spheres and assimilators), the spheres are pretty useless.
I typically have to play defensive till I get enough cubes. The spheres are even overpowered by assimilators of the opposite borg team AI...

also, im curious whether the people who say the borg are balanced, say so based on their fulfillment by killing borg as Feds/klings/roms or by actually playing as Borg.

If we dont want to improve beam power, we need to be cock sure about how borg ships are actually standing up to other races, not just as 1 cube vs 5 or 6 fed sovs... but by actually looking at how many ships can be made by the feds in the same time as it takes to make 1 cube.
this is what needs to be taken into account for evaluating borg balance as well, and not just strength vs strength.. and one of the main factors is the rate of resource collection in addition to mere resource requirement for the borg.
Agreed that the miners can collect 600 dil and 400 tritanium, but a minter collecting 600 dilithium also takes longer to move around the moon while collecting and then docks to unload.

A fed miner that does 150 would have made 2.5 drop offs by then. giving the feds 300 dilithium for ships whose resource requirement is not disproportional in the same ratio.

In effect the feds/klings/roms are able to pump out more. Leaving the borg behind.

at this point, something has to be realized for spheres as a viable mid level ship that can actually support the borg fleet till cubes are good to go.
And at that level, I see the beam weakness as a major hindrance to the borg side.

Abilities like devastating attack and cutter beam are fine and dandy. But when faced by an overwhelming pack of dogs, even the largest Grizzly will be taken down.
If the borg smaller ships were more robust we could speak of tactics. but with teh spheres weak in attack, and assimilators weak in defense (for the resources they take up), the borg support craft are seriously out of whack...

posted on March 4th, 2009, 11:55 pm

So you've only played AI and you are complaining?

Let me assure you (as one who plays as Borg quite heavily) that the Borg are by no means weak and in fact their early game rush can be quite crippling (scout cubes are enormously powerful and cheap). Spheres are quite powerful as they are multitargeting and have a huge defense as well (when getting the right modules). Likewise, they are smaller than assimilators and so bunch up much easier. Cubes are not the end all: diamonds and spheres really are much better. Additionally, those beams are best against smaller ships, as the torps usually miss. I never really find myself having to play defensive when I am borg against some other race, unless I have already lost the advantage of their powerful early game ships (and thus my expansion is limited). Really, the main weakness of Borg is their inability to counter multi-system disablers and that's about it. Unless you are playing onno credits, rather than the standard 20 (or even 10), their slicer beam, devastating attack, and nanites really hurt.

In regards to resource gathering: I generally find that the Borg if anything are extraordinarily STRONG resource gathers. Even with only 2 pairs of moons, it is quite easy to surpass the resource extraction rate of races with 4 pairs (try it, don't just say it). However, this is balanced very well, I might add, by the resource consumption of each of their ships. As I have said, I don't believe there is any problem with the Borg except for the disabler-type weapons (mainly dominion, but a little from klingons too... romies and feds seem to be well balanced against Borg with than though)

[Anonymous]

posted on March 5th, 2009, 5:09 am

Last edited by Anonymous on March 5th, 2009, 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

again - no one is saying they are weak. The beams are weak and useless compared to the other beam weapons of the other races. and no one is denying that.
the rest of cube vs sphere bs scout cube etc is sundry and not relevant to the point of the beams being weak.
in fact when a borg ship's stats indicate 207 offensive, the offensive value is more seen in torp hits. It is frankly shocking to see beams on a vessel with base offensive of 75 such as a cube and final offensive 207 (3 torps and 1 beam) having all its punch in a torp, while its beam caresses the enemy's shields as if it were stroking a kitten.

From a wholistic standpoint yes we see the borg are helped to strength by their torps. this is the overview you are seeing and referring to. But on scrutiny, the beams are frankly cat scratchers.

As regards the resources, I do not agree with you as to how strong they are. You find the "great" resource gathering because you have to wait till you get the other structures up in order to build a node.
Since most of the other structures are built from the starting resources, the collectors get the head start, and you are seeing the amount accruing.
However, if you were to take a look at the flow of resources of the borg, and then play dominion or fed or rom, you will see that the stream is more constant for those races.
Many a times, I have been left waiting fro my collectors to get back to the miing stationsbefore I can continue augmenting my ships... does not leave me wanting .. but it is a point to note when compared to the more constant streams of the other races.

this is what I see when I play, and scrutinize the breaking points of the side im on.
.
Im sure you opine based on what you see when you do. 

posted on March 5th, 2009, 5:28 am

I disagree. Beams are far from useless as you state, and aren't even all that weak. Sure they aren't incredibly powerful "like on the show", but why are we even having this "discussion"? It has the same futility as the Federation PowerBoost (tm) lectures or the Great Galaxy Gaff of 09. If you want other opinions though, possibly pm Mark or le_deimos, as they too play Borg a lot against actual players.

posted on March 5th, 2009, 2:11 pm

Agreed entirely.

[Braunbaer]

posted on March 5th, 2009, 3:23 pm

Last edited by Braunbaer on March 5th, 2009, 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm curious whether the Borg like popcorn. Hm. Maybe they can make some uber popcorn. Nanotechnology ftw!

Ehh..oh..hey..what? Beams? Oh, we are talking about the Borg beams. Yeah, ehm. Okay, that's kind of boring.

I want some popcorn, right now! Resistance is futile! 

[Anonymous]

posted on March 5th, 2009, 3:48 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on March 5th, 2009, 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I disagree. Beams are far from useless as you state, and aren't even all that weak. Sure they aren't incredibly powerful "like on the show", but why are we even having this "discussion"? It has the same futility as the Federation PowerBoost (tm) lectures or the Great Galaxy Gaff of 09. If you want other opinions though, possibly pm Mark or le_deimos, as they too play Borg a lot against actual players.

the reason why we are having it is the Borg beams do nothing.
Fed beams do
Rom beams do
Kling beams do
Dominion beams do
Borg beams dont..

If we are going to limit the number of pods of a specific weapon we can have on a ship, such as assimilators only 1 beam and 2 torps, while spheres only 1 torp and 3 beams, whith cubes 1 beam and 3 torps max, then certainly the spheres are at a disadvantage.

As I stated, an assimilator can kick the sphere's arse.

This is a major beam deficiency.

no one is talking about a power boost, as was done for the Feds... so I dont understand why one needs to associate the 2.

All Im saying is the borg beams are scratching kittens.

On ships that are supposed to have 201 offensive strenght, beams that rub shields like some queer act of STU battle foreplay, is frankly ridiculous and downright silly.

Make little sense for borg torps to pack all that punch, while the beams are back scratchers.

If one speaks of balance, there is no balance in having overpowered torps and underpowered beams.
That's what this discussion is about, in case you missed the point.

posted on March 5th, 2009, 4:16 pm

I'm curious whether the Borg like popcorn. Hm. Maybe they can make some uber popcorn. Nanotechnology ftw!

Ehh..oh..hey..what? Beams? Oh, we are talking about the Borg beams. Yeah, ehm. Okay, that's kind of boring.

I want some popcorn, right now! Resistance is futile! 

NOOO the borg assimilated popcorn!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted on March 5th, 2009, 4:19 pm

The most powerful weapon known to mankind, and we can't use it anymore... 

posted on March 5th, 2009, 8:58 pm

3.04 the beams are pretty effective but i was just wondering why they dont damage until after they are done firing

posted on March 5th, 2009, 11:57 pm

Thats how Armada2 beam weapons work