Battleships

posted on March 3rd, 2012, 11:41 pm

Hi there. I played a lot against the AI with all races against all races and found some things out:

1) A captured ship isnt as strong as the original one. I've build all upgrades, so the ships should be equivalent in strength, but the captured ones arent.
2) There is a huge gap in the feeling of leading battleships in the field. And here is why:

I build a battleship and if I compare it to a cruiser or a destroyer, it isnth that much stronger. In fact, the better speed and torp-evasion of the small ships have proven them in many situations more durable than the battleships. As I played the romulanns, I tried to wield the big D against the AI and I found out: This ship doesnt cut it out. Sure, it was able to cloak before it was destroyed, but the weapon loadout was just too small in order to make a difference. The same goes for the Negh'var. The weapon loadout is a little better, but the defense of this ship is so low, that it cant wield its weapons long enough to be effective.

So I thought about this: Make the battleships stronger. The romulan rhien disruptor-refit comes nearly to the defense of the big D. I dont have of problem with the defense value of the rhien, but I have one with the "only a little better" one of the big D. If I compare the size (which matters in fleet engagements) the big D should have much more defense and offense, to make it more worthy. The same should then also go along with all other battleships. Make the difference a little more prominent of the size.

I also found out, that the high-level federation ships get a massive amount of defensive boost. Compared to the klingon ships, they feel like getting double the bonus and nearly every fed ship on two gold bars got an overwhelming stat-wielding that the klingons just sit there and say "Well, I have 4 defense more and a little more offense and thats it". If I take for example the Miranda MK II (may be okay, because mixed tech), or the Galaxy or the ambassador or anything else of this level, it rises really high.

Well, I dont have problems with that. I like good bonus on experienced ships - but then, give it to all races in an equivalent way. The klingons suffer really hard on that. If I play klingons. A little more base defense for them would be good. Their 4 seconds cloak is also only good for engaging combat, not for retreating. The romulans can save some ships through cloak, but the klingons must retreat, because 4 seconds are just too long for this. I got a ridiculous amount on losses with them (While still getting a good amount of kills on the other hand) But I felt like, that I could better retreat with the dominion ships because of their speed (S2 and V13 at officer levels)

posted on March 4th, 2012, 12:24 am

Against AI games some of the larger ships can indeed feel like they don't measure up.  This is partly because the AI can and will spam much larger numbers of ships in general.  This overshadows you having 1 or 2 large battleships more so than it would in a PvP game.

  Flops is balanced for PvP  , and Battleships are often a fearsome thing.  Big D's are REALLY hard to kill before they can cloak away in a human - human game.

posted on March 4th, 2012, 12:29 am

Well the battleships are mainly for soaking up damage in a fleet and base cracking.

The Big  D does an excellent job at that and it has a very useful special. The other Romulan battleships are more offensively orientated.

The Sovereign is at the moment more a support than a regular battleship. It's special stops annoying small ships in their tracks to be killed. Can't wait for the new patch though in which the Sovereign is rumored to be reworked to be move like the series.

The Negh'var, though weak against small ships, is a real killer in groups of 2-3 with it's special and it has access to an advanced cloak to add to the firepower.

I don't see the battleships as less useful than cruiser, they simply play different roles.
Cruisers are the main body of a fleet and nobody can survive without them. Battleships can turn a tide though in mixed fleets.

Testing against the AI usually doesn't show the real strength/weakness of units. Perhaps you can find some online games in which they are used.

[Lost_Spaceship]

posted on March 4th, 2012, 12:31 am

Last edited by Lost_Spaceship on March 4th, 2012, 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Federation = Great shield defense / Poor Hull HP / Poor attack / Poor system value . Mixing the correct ship types, you can configure to attack an specific enemy squadron.

Romulan = Medium shield defense / Medium Hull HP / Great Attack / Great System Value . An example of good tactic. For every D'Deridex built, build 2 Norexans or 4 Rhiens Refit or 2 Leahval to increase attack and durability to squadron or 4 Generix Spectre Refit to incrase durability and damage against Hull.
Generix Singulaity Refit is required for every Romulan Fleet.
Tactic for every ship. Hit and Run ; Ambush.

Klingons = Poor Shield defense / Great Hull HP / Great Attack / Medium System Value. You can configure you squadron. For example: You can build a Negh'Var and you choose between B'rel and K'vort. B'rel to increase damage against Long Range and K'vort to increase damage against Medium Range.
You Kill Borg Assimilators instantly.

Dominion = Great Shield Defense / Great Hull HP / Great Attack / Poor System Value.
For every Dreadnought you build 2 Battleships, 8 Attack Destroyers and 6 War Frigates.

Borg = None shield defense except Adaptor with low shield defense / Greatest Hull HP / Greatest Attack / Great System Value.

You must to know which squadron comply with your strategy.
Never an alone Battleship can destroy a fleet, it needs support ever.

posted on March 4th, 2012, 12:30 pm

Yes, I know, that a fleet must be mixed to be effective, but I thought, that the battleships are lacking their purpose - to suck up damage and give out a punch, when you need it.

The only ship that feels right now like a battleship is the S-7 Defender. It puts out a lot of damage and can soak up a lot. Every hit from its main cannon is a punch that lets the small enemy ships make a retreat after one or two hits.

Yes, one S-7 alone cant do anything against a larger fleet, but mixed with a fleet, the S-7 is really great. This doesnt feel, if I take a big D. The big D really lacks a punch and should be a little more durable. Same goes for Neggie and the souvereign just doesnt have a punch at all.

I just wanted to see a little more distance from cruisers to the large battleship, like +10 or +15 more in everything. This may sound a little high - yes, but with a cost increase, it would be proper again. This also puts your battleships to a very prominent position, so that you dont want to loose it and when you got it out, the enemy will fear your battleship. Nevertheless, the cruisers are your backbone, the battleship should be your spearhead and the smaller ones should be your fire-support. But no spearhead is to be seen right now, with the exception of the dreadnoughts. The dreadnoughts are right now that what I want to see as battleship - maybe a bit more than that, yes.

In player vs player, the situation will change, you wield much lesser numbers. But the pronciple should be roughly the same.

I'm for more prominent battleships. Oh, and the special from the big D could be a little stronger I think. I makes radius effect, but the special from the dominion cruiser does it also with a much larger effect and longer duration. I'd like to see a little counter for the romulans against a massive fleet. They are in the latze game always outnumbered. They should have some special against that, without breaking balance.

posted on March 4th, 2012, 9:12 pm

There are a few factors that need pointing out.

One is that the hitpoint/defense ratio is exponential, meaning if you double the defense value, the ship's hitpoints go up much more than double.  The defense value won't give you a direct comparison for how much damage the larger ships can take.

The overwhelming factor for battleships (especially warbirds) is that they have an easier time surviving long enough to get into a repair yard.  An early warbird is nearly impossible to kill until around the 15-minute mark.

The thing with Battleships is that they move too slowly to play aggressive, and as you mentioned their damage output can't compete with swarms of smaller ships.  If you send a battleship to attack the enemy's mining, you can be sure that his small ships will kill your own mining faster than you can get his.

For this reason, battleships are used defensively until you build up enough to go roll over the enemy.  Battleship strategies are highly dependent on the map, and whether it is possible to defend 2 moon pairs with your battleships long enough to reach critical mass.  In general, battleships need to be kept weak or else this becomes a completely unbeatable wall on certain maps.

The new system will make this so much nicer, as ships no longer counter large ships specifically.  Also, the ability of defensive battleships to tank for your small fleet will be incredibly useful while offensive battleships can be given better firepower than the current generation without being overpowered.

posted on March 4th, 2012, 10:38 pm

Okay, then I'll await the new system to try it out. :3
I was really a little bit depressed, on how weak the battleships were when compared to the size of the little cruiser.


Oh, before I forget it: There is MUCH talk about destroyers and pulse weapons, but we have very few destroyers out there. Why using pulse weaponary on most ships, when we never use it against destroyers? If the new system would... well, maybe put the classes of destroyer/cruiser/battleship/dreadnought in a way, that every class hase the same amount of ships to choose, I would like that.

Also, what are the differences between small/medium/large ones? (As seen in the guide)

posted on March 5th, 2012, 1:58 am

Actually, Small, Medium, and Large determines whether a ship is stronger/weaker to Torp/Pulse damage.  The destroyer/cruiser/battleship setup is only used for a few passives.  There is only one thing that everybody needs to know and that is that Borg adapted photons deal -70% damage to Battleships.  For the geeks like me, a complete list is below.


Klingons
Taqroja Kbeajq: special attack strong vs Destroyers
Officer Brel, Sang: strong vs Destroyers
Officer Chargh: strong vs Destroyers and Cruisers
Vet Sang, Veqlaragh, Susa, Neghvar: extra damage to Battleships

Other races
Martok E2: strong vs Battleships when guided torps is active
Breen Cruiser, Breen Battleship: extra damage to Battleships
Shrike: can disable the weapons of Destroyers
Torpedo Rhienn: Extra damage to Cruisers (Spheres beware!)
Intercept Scube, Dode: incredibly weak vs Battleships

All of these will be changed in the next patch and absorbed into the offense/defense paradigm, with perhaps a few exceptions.

Right now Pulse weaponry is kind of crappy; it's used to gain an early-game advantage but loses effectiveness in big fleets.  However keep in mind that all the races besides Dominion and Borg have small miners which are vulnerable to pulses, and the Klingons have small constructors as well.

posted on March 5th, 2012, 2:02 am

There are actually far more of these types of weapons/effects than you've posted there 

posted on March 5th, 2012, 2:35 am

Martok E2: strong vs Battleships when guided torps is active

Martok gets the E2? Sweet!!

More likely that you mean Mayson though 

[Tryptic]

posted on March 5th, 2012, 3:17 am

Last edited by Tryptic on March 5th, 2012, 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

There are actually far more of these types of weapons/effects than you've posted there 

Really? These are the only ones listed in the guide that I'm aware of.

Well, based on Destroyer/Cruiser/Battleship that is.  Of course I wasn't counting the passives based on range, size, speed, sensor radius, defensive value, offensive value, single-shot damage, number of special abilities and ship rank 

Oh yeah, and whether the ship has torpedo weapons or not. 

posted on March 5th, 2012, 3:32 am

There are a good deal more listed in the database and elsewhere that specifically effect classes and/or sizes - for instance, the Quantum Pulse, the Charged Polaron Beam, and Counter-Weaponry . If you meant just classes, yup, there are only a few ones other than what you mentioned that affect those.

posted on March 5th, 2012, 10:23 am

when you see lists like that that aren't even complete, it's really easy to see why the system is being dumped.

posted on March 5th, 2012, 11:34 pm

Klingons
Officer Chargh: strong vs Destroyers and Cruisers

And it deals extra-damage to battleships on officer-rank.

If Martok gets Excelsior II, vote for Mayson to get the Vor'cha

posted on March 6th, 2012, 1:56 am

And it deals extra-damage to battleships on officer-rank.

If Martok gets Excelsior II, vote for Mayson to get the Vor'cha

I vote Breen Gets the cube. TORPEDO DAMAGE BOOST MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

But like myles said, the system needs the revamp its getting