An Idea for Warp-In:

[Boggz]

posted on November 6th, 2009, 1:00 am

Last edited by Boggz on November 6th, 2009, 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

  Alright now before everyone jumps on this and goes crazy let's all just take a moment to breathe.

...

  Alright.  Now I know there have been a lot of topics addressing the Warp-In in the past.  I think some of them had the right idea and some were the result of just being beaten too much and getting upset.  I propose this:

1.  Adding another vessel option in the arrival choices for Warp-in.

And-

2.  Rearranging the percent chance of what comes in.
OR -
3.  Making the Warp-in feature Upgradeable

   There.  Not so crazy, not so drastic, not cutting the balls off the Feds, just adjusting the purpose a little bit.  Now I'll explain each point.  I love playing Feds but I never really do unless I random it because I just feel it's too easy.  Warp-in is one of my favorite parts about Fleet Ops so far and I think it adds a dynamic and depth to strategic gameplay that I have not found in mods even for other games.  I just want to make sure that by being unique to the Federation is doesn't provide them with an edge that's more than necessary.

1.  Adding another vessel option in the arrival choices for standard Warp-in.

   [glow=red,2,300]1.[/glow]
ADDING ANOTHER VESSEL:  I propose that another destroyer be added to the Warp-in lineup.  I'm talking of course about the sad and forgotten Miranda class that we know so well from the movies and as the obligatory Federation blowing up ship in DS9. 

[align=center]

We all miss it.[/align]

[glow=red,2,300]2.[/glow]
CANON:  The Miranda is an aging destroyer.  Like the Excelsior it's vast numbers made up large parts of the Federation Fleets during the Dominion War and due to the extensive losses suffered during that time they are surely still used to patrol key areas and serve minor duties.  Their major fighting role seems to have been replaced by the Miranda II just as the Excelsior has been replaced by the Excel II.  Nevertheless they still exist in the Fed fleet and are perfect candidates to come to aid when trouble is found.

[glow=red,2,300]3.[/glow]
PRACTICAL USE  The Excelsior is a great destroyer to get early on in the game.  Long range and torpedoes give it flexibility in the targets it can choose.  It's fast and agile like a destoyer should be and it fits the power balance of an early game match.  Destroyers and light cruisers are what your opponent is likely to be fielding, making sense that a destroyer with almost light cruiser stats should be available around the same time.  I tend to liken an Excel to a slightly more powerful KbeajQ.
  Thus I feel it's sensible for early Warp-In's to consist of mostly Excellent Destroyers with versatility and strong stats.  Hey, it's the Fed - they go for quality and usefulness.  Getting 3 Destroyer/Cruisers for free every 3 minutes is on par with what you can build on your own and what your opponent is likely producing.

[glow=red,2,300]4.[/glow]
SUGGESTED STATS:
  Due to the Miranda's role in the Dominion War as a front-line ship (and the Miranda II's subsequent role as a "Blockade Breaker" ) it goes to stand that it would be a fast and aggressive ship with weapons stronger than an Excelsior to break through lines of enemy starships.  While the Excelsior tends to have a survivability to it, the Miranda should fulfill what we all know the Warp-In is worshipped for:  extra firepower for the Feds early game.
 
[align=center]As evidence I submit this clip from "Sacrifice of Angels" complete with humorous text.
[/align]

  Using Dominus Noctus' Guide format for vessel Overviews I submit the Miranda should be:
Name  Class  Size         Off.   Def.  Syst.  Speed  Arm.  Range  Crew
Miranda   destroyer  small  23  18  8  110          BT  Long  80

• Phaser
  
• Burst Photon Torpedo (+2) on opening combat
• Rank 5 gains Field Command:  This vessel no longer counts towards the Warp-In limit.
• Veteran Rank gains 2 more Torpedoes to the opening burst.
Veteran Stats:  42/34/10

   Much like the Defiant's higher weapon value for punching through ships in the first formations, the Miranda's function is much the same.  It was made during a time when the extra firepower could make the difference.  Having available in the Warp-in a destroyer with better offense and a destroyer with better defense opens up new possibilities when attacking a mining facility or fending off early attacks.  A Miranda with Burst Torpedoes would give the Feds a very useful counter to early Borg attacks as well as decent torpedo volley's do not really become available till either the Intrepid's special or the Excell II.

2.  Rearranging the percent chance of what comes in.
OR -
3.  Making the Warp-in feature Upgradeable

[glow=red,2,300]1.[/glow]
To accomodate a new vessel in the Warp-in Lineup the percentages would need to be re-arranged.  I don't think I will make a chart or anything but you can all see the current percentages on Dom's site: http://fleetopsguide.freecp.net/fed_units.  Really this is a chance to make the Warp-in fit better in the scaling of the game as it progresses.  Right now - if I'm playing a skilled opponent and they warp in a pair of Galaxies and a Steamrunner (worse yet a Galaxy and two Steamies), I'm in deep shit.  By the time getting that Warp-in is possible I will have a few destroyers ready.  Klingons can have several B'rels and/or a KbeajQ or two (Susa's if they expected an early warp).  Romulans can have a couple of Rhienns that may or may not be upgraded yet.  Dominion may have an easier time repelling it as puretech can churn out bugs like crazy and borg ... well Borg are just F'd in the A.  Good luck stopping a pair of steamrunners from destroying your first uplink.  I feel that one of the two afforementioned options should be considered.

[glow=red,2,300]2.[/glow]
PERCENTAGES:  I'd really rather not do this because I feel that as the game progresses it's more important for a Fed player to be warping in stronger vessels and not outmatched destroyers.  Maybe with the new patch's reliance on Interceptor units the destroyers will live on but by the time battleships are coming into play you want to be getting Galaxy's and Ambassador's, not Miranda's or Excel's as much.  Though that first Warp-in can make or a break a game as they can in many cases completely replace the ships being built from the shipyards while the player uses the money they save on teching and fortifying with turrets.  Mayson is especially adept at ignoring shipyard units and relying completely on the warp-in for vessels until his massive Excell II's come out.  That's boring .

[glow=red,2,300]3.[/glow]
WARP-IN UPGRADABLE:  This is the better option in my opinion.  A 2 or 3 Tier system would prevent a Warp-in reliant player from completely ignoring ship production in order to load up on turrets or tech straight to Excel II's.  I really think that actually making the types of vessels you're more likely to get keep up with the Chassis's you've researched would be a good barometer for the game.  That AND it would keep a Mayson player from ignoring his Chassis upgrades in favor of making just Excel II's supporting Warp-in's and canaverals.

  THUS:  With the chances being out of 10.
[align=center] 

• Tier 0 (standard):  Destroyers: 7 - Cruisers: 2 - Battleships: 1
• Tier 1 (Chassis 1): Destroyers: 5 - Cruisers: 3 - Battleships: 2
• Tier 2 (Chassis 2): Destroyers: 3 - Cruisers: 4 - Battleships: 3
• Tier 3 (Chassis 3): Destroyers: 0(1) - Cruisers: 3 - Battleships: 7(6)

[/align]

Obviously that's just a rough number crunch.  The general Idea is that as the game progresses and you tech up, the rate at which you receive powerful vessels from warp-in will increase.  You are still getting vessels for free every 3 minutes that can be placed on the map at your leisure, giving a great boost in fighting ability, but you're also going to value those vessels and are encouraged to level them up and not waste them.  by the time you're fielding larger vessels you'll be warping in mostly Galaxies, Nebulas, Ambassadors, and Steamies.  Makes sense to me.

  Now maybe you're thinking: "Hey now, that takes a lot of the direct stats away from the Fed's early game".  It does.  You're right.  But now the Fed player is encouraged to support their warp-ins with actual ships that they can build instead of relying on the powerful shields of Ambassdor's Nebula's and Galaxies to keep them safe for 3 minutes until the next wave comes in and then the next.  With this ideaq you prevent several habits I notice people making online:

• (Mayson) Building nothing but Canav's from the Shipyard until the Eraudi is up.
• (Both) Using the money you're not spending on ships to vomit turrets on your expansion
• (Mayson) Skipping the destroyer phase of the game by porc'ing up with Torpedo turrets.

  Woof ... ok I'm tired.  I'll re-edit this as ideas come in.  Please take it seriously!  The Warp-in is one of the coolest features of the game and I want to see it loved and not despised or worshiped.  I think this is a great way to keep it excellent and powerful while scaling it up with the game.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 1:18 am

Yes I agree with most of this.  However, feds are slow builders and can easily be outproduced by the klingons or rommulans in minutes. To make up for this, you get 3 ships (or 1 descent) every 3 min, but you can only do this 3 times as there is a limit.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 1:22 am

Well I dont' know if I'd call Mayson a slow builder.  75% construction time works wonders for throwing up turrets.  I just feel like the Warp-ins are supposed to be an addition, not an end-all.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 1:28 am

That doesn't effect the ships, though. Turrets are no use for raiding bases and fleets.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 1:32 am

I think you pose some good ideas. I for one definitly would like to see the miranda as a warp-in. Also I like the ideas of being able to "upgrade" warp-ins. But i would radther see the upgrades as investments radther than increasing with chasis research. Or as its own research tier in other words.

Also I might tweak down the Mirandas stats just a lil.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 2:00 am

Yeah numbers can always change

  I thought the idea of Chassis and warp-in researching together would make it a combined effort of progression, you know?  That way it wouldn't add another thing needed to be researched by the Feds.
 
  Whenever I play Feds I just find it far too easy to rely on the Warp-ins for early support and save my money for other things.  This was a way to avoid that and make the Warp-in an integral part of the strat throughout the game.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 2:13 am

Love the miranda idea in fact its one of my own(check my sig) the other ones im not so sure about, i like getting steamrunners. id be cool with upgrading it so you never get nebualas though (most worless vessel in the game IMO, anything that it can kill it cant catch, anything that it can catch can kill it)

posted on November 6th, 2009, 2:53 am

Interesting and nicely thought out ideas Boggz .

I think I'd be happy either way really (even though I like the current system just fine) - just remember that there is a Federation "redo" planned for patch 10 (or was it 9?), so things may change much more drastically (which will in turn offer a chance for some of your ideas to be considered I bet ^^).

One thing that I think I must mention is that in the past Optec has stated that he considers the Miranda way out of date. Here is a wonderful post in reference to PD's demand: "OMG². They were in service during the Dominion War, cause they were still in their service period. We KNOW that starfleet vessels usually get dismissed after 2 -3 operation periods (look at the good old Enterprise for example). In 2380 (where FO takes place) all Excelsior and Miranda Class vessels are out of date".

However, we do know that this was slightly changed for the war refit of the Excelsior... but as far as I know, the Miranda will remain a planned map object in the "star ship graveyards"  . Not sure what I want exactly - I feel a little odd that the Miranda (a rather weak vessel that in the FO storyline would have been decommissioned or derelict) would be added to the Warp-In. I feel much more comfortable with them appearing for a new avatar than seeing them in the traditional Warp-In .

EDIT: Nebula is far from useless Dircome: happens to be an excellent freighter and destroyer killer with its strong shields and powerful pulse weaponry.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 3:21 am

well then someone should teach me how to use it then cuz right now i either decomission it or send it on suicide runs. Well i do like the sensor scan thing that it has though kind of like a mobile scan outpost

posted on November 6th, 2009, 3:31 am

Well, the Nebula is a "large" vessel with off/def/sys as 25/29/18 and speed 80. That's pretty close to a Galaxy class. Since it is large, it takes 60% from pulses, and its armament means that it deals quite a large amount of damage to destroyers (more than Steams, Excels, Ambassadors and probably even Galaxies due to torp miss rates). Don't see how you can consider it useless.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 4:21 am

well then someone should teach me how to use it then cuz right now i either decomission it or send it on suicide runs. Well i do like the sensor scan thing that it has though kind of like a mobile scan outpost

  If you use your first Warp-in to attack your opponents mining the Nebula should be the one to always attack the miners while other can perhaps attack any destroyers that try and stop you. Basically the Neb will do awesome against the freighters and is very hard to kill early on in the game.  Thus your opponent an either attack your Neb to save the freighters and lose his destroyers, or can attack your others and lose his freighters.

  Back to the Miranda though, I just figured since the Excelsior is refitted for war after the Dominion War and starfleet's Armada is diminished, in times of Crisis (a la Warp-in) it might be useful.

  Of course the numbers could be tweaked.  I figured it might be a nice strike vessel to compliment the Excelsior.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 9:37 am

yep, warp-in is ment to be an interessting game element, not a game-ender, thats why i don't like the idea of changing the warp-in mechanics or making them upgradeable. If you realy want battleships for your strategy, feel free to build them You can't get everything free

The Miranda won't become a Warp-In, as it was already old and obsolete the time the Excelsior was produced.. thats like fielding a catapult in modern warfare. The Miranda will appear some day, but neither as a buildable nor as a warp-in craft

posted on November 6th, 2009, 3:35 pm

What about the Excelsior-B class?



After all, I thought that it'd still be used. Besides... we have two. Why not put in a third?

Or, we could have the Araxes class. A multi-role tactical destroyer would seem fitting.


Either one would be nice.

Though I would like to add that the idea of an upgradable warp-in would be hard. Though I would recommend that maybe there can be a stage system. Here is the list of stages that can be implemented and what it can call in and by what chance would the ship appear.

Priority Low (Always available):
//Ship                                Slot 1                  Slot2                  Slot3
Excelsior Class                    0/10                    3/10                  3/10
Excelsior-B Class                  2/10                  1/10                  0/10
Araxes Class                      0/10                    4/10                  3/10
Ambassador                        8/10                    1/10                  0/10
Akula Class (TMP)                0/10                    0/10                  4/10

Priority Medium (Upgrade 1 Required):
//Ship                                Slot1                  Slot2                  Slot3
Galaxy Class                      4/10                    1/10                  0/10
Nebula Class                      4/10                    3/10                  0/10
Ambassador                        2/10                    0/10                  4/10
Excelsior Class                    0/10                    0/10                  2/10
Excelsior-B Class                  0/10                    2/10                  2/10
Niagara Class                      0/10                    4/10                  2/10

Priority One [High] (Upgrade 2 Required):
//Ship                                Slot1                    Slot2                  Slot3
Galaxy Class                      6/10                    2/10                  0/10
Nebula Class                      0/10                    4/10                  2/10
Ambassador                        0/10                    2/10                  5/10
Niagara Class                      0/10                    0/10                  3/10
Excalibur Class                    4/10                    0/10                  0/10

Experimental Call (Upgrade 3 Required):
//Ship                                Appearence Chance
Descent                              4/10
Excalibur Transwarp Refit      4/10
Titan Class                        2/10

posted on November 6th, 2009, 5:44 pm

yep, warp-in is ment to be an interessting game element, not a game-ender, thats why i don't like the idea of changing the warp-in mechanics or making them upgradeable. If you realy want battleships for your strategy, feel free to build them You can't get everything free

The Miranda won't become a Warp-In, as it was already old and obsolete the time the Excelsior was produced.. thats like fielding a catapult in modern warfare. The Miranda will appear some day, but neither as a buildable nor as a warp-in craft

 
  Lol just wait till my catapult is parked outside your house!  Then we'll see how obsolete it is!

But see I agree with you about the game-ending idea.  I feel sometimes that getting hit immediately by a steamrunner and a pair of galaxies can end the game before it starts.  Destroying those Galaxies with the destroyers you likely have available is next to impossible.  Thus a pair of Battleships are on the field right away and is 3 minutes they have more backup. 
   
  I've heard people say "the Galaxies will miss destroyers more often than not" but I find that is merely an obstacle, not a roadblock for them.  I don't know ...  I love the Warp-in I just can't stand seeing people (especially Mayson Feds) completely ignore building ships until they have Excel II's by relying on just hte Warp-in's they get for free.  They have all the money in the world to start teching up right away and turreting because they are building ships.

posted on November 6th, 2009, 6:24 pm

You might be able to ignore other vessels against mediocre opponents as Mayson Feds, but against an adversary who micromanages their vessels decently, you will have no chance if you refuse to build Canaverals, Norways, or Sabers. Three vessels every 3 minutes is just not enough to counter your opponents. I also disagree that destroying 2 Galaxies right away is impossible - I look at it as free rank ups. Medium range slow vessels armed with mainly torps can be easily avoided and killed before they can make a retreat or do major damage.