A few balance tweaks

posted on February 1st, 2011, 1:48 am

Amidst a bunch of Big Ideas and strange theories, I want to suggest a few smaller balance tweaks, along with their argument:


Romulans:
-Warbird yard cost reduced by 200/100 or 100/50. 

Warbirds are a prominent part of Romulan canon, and as Boggz recently pointed out they're usually not worth transitioning to.  While the Dominion have an expensive yard and cheap ships, the Romulans have expensive ships and should have a slightly cheaper yard.

-MPW damage reduced from 50 to 40.

I love Norexans sooo much, but MPW does a TON of damage in an incredibly short amount of time.  I believe it should be less of a Damage Spike.  Perhaps also reduce the energy cost but it's not necessary.


Dominion/Federation:

-Either intrepid size slightly increased, S2 size slightly decreased, or both

This doesn't necessarily need to affect their footprint, but the physical sizes need to be adjusted for clarity's sake.  The intrepid is a medium ship, the S2 is a small, and the S2 model is almost 3x the size of the intrepid.


Borg:

Regeneration module bonus increased from 10%-20%.  Third regen module on a sphere does not give this bonus.

Right now the Regen module isn't actually the best way to get natural regen, the system value modules do better.  For example I'm not certain but I believe vinculum/intercept dode regens faster than a regen/intercept dode.  Also, this would soften the difference between 2-regen and 3-regen spheres and make more options viable.


All Races:
Attack/Defense upgrade amounts increased from 6%-10%

Right now, if you have INFINITE tritanium, and you are building Akiras, the cost/effect ratio of upgrading the existing ones vs building more Akiras is:

(450/584)/0.06 = 12.84

So even if you have infinite tritanium, you get more advantage from building another Akira than you would from upgrading unless you have more than 12 ships already.  Upgrades need to be stronger.

posted on February 1st, 2011, 10:18 pm

reducing the cost of the warbird yard is dangerous as if they become available too early it can be unbalancing. they may be expensive, but they are worth it in my opinion. they have naturally high defence and the ability to cloak in 2 seconds.

in the early game you wouldnt be able to get a dps kill on a mijural warbird. you would NEED decloak. i think with good cloak and strong hulls they deserve to cost a lot.

i find that teching to warbirds can provide you with a lot of muscle if u dont want gens lol.

posted on February 1st, 2011, 11:01 pm

-MPW damage reduced from 50 to 40.

I love Norexans sooo much, but MPW does a TON of damage in an incredibly short amount of time.  I believe it should be less of a Damage Spike.  Perhaps also reduce the energy cost but it's not necessary.

Except for this, I like your ideas. I personally think since the Norexan has a weak defense compared to other warbirds however I tend to like having it as a damage-dealer first and a swift stealth-raider second.

reducing the cost of the warbird yard is dangerous as if they become available too early it can be unbalancing. they may be expensive, but they are worth it in my opinion. they have naturally high defence and the ability to cloak in 2 seconds.

Careful: Only big D and Tavara have the really good defense.

Norexan, Eresis and Cehlaer are actually quite fragile for their size. And all of them have big weakpoints, especially against Klingons (6 Taq'Roja-B'rel vs a Cehlaer means that it can't even cloak out before it dies, or 3 K'Vorts against Eresis/Norexan for that matter).

posted on February 1st, 2011, 11:47 pm

i disagree, i think cehlaer are plenty strong enough to cloak under any early game fire. ignoring decloak and hard counters.

eresis is fast so doesnt deserve strong defence.

big D and tavara are bloody hard to kill even later in the game. a big d can cloak repair and attack repeatedly if microd well.

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 12:18 am

i disagree, i think cehlaer are plenty strong enough to cloak under any early game fire. ignoring decloak and hard counters.

also ignoring that I told something about 6 B'rels which have manual targeting which means the Cehlaer is dead (cloaking or not cloaking) if singled out

On the Eresis' speed it depends on if the Kvorts are microed well enough to keep the Eresis in weapon range.

And lastly the Norexan neither has the defensive boon of the D'Deridex, also not the defensive special of the Cehlaer and nor does it have impressive speeds - it basically only has its dps. Which was my point: Not to reduce the damage-values of MPW. The Norexan is one of the best offensive romulan units and quite specialised on that in particular.

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 1:03 am

Actually I've had my Cehlaer destroyed by 3 Taq B'rels one time .  Made me facepalm my own stupidity.


    I've stayed away from this thread for the most part, but in my opinion the real killer here would be the Norexan.  Frankly I'm not terribly opposed to a slight cost reduction on the Warbird Yard itself, but Norexan's (with MPW) are a terror that can easily beat it's own counters.  The others cannot do so as they lack the kind of direct damage boost that the Norexan has.

    @ Myles:  Do not underestimate the powers of the emp-  whoops of the MPW .  It turns the ship into a counter-breaking beast.  It'll slap down Intrepids, K'vorts, S-2's, and lots of other ships that are supposed to technically be the counter.  The other Warbirds cannot do this and can be rendered very ineffective if the enemy fields the right thing.

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 3:03 am

Wow.  When nobody replied to this thread, I was ready to just say "I lose" and let it go.  Boggz hit the nail on the head with my thinking: the only warbird that would truly be overpowered with a cheaper warbird yard is the Norexan, as the Tal-Shiar Academy is easy to build before transitioning to warbirds but the Upgrade Facility is useful ONLY for D-rhienns and D'Deridex.

I wouldn't recommend lowering the cost of the Warbird Yard without also dulling the effect of MPW.

Currently, if you try to warbird rush AND claim your expansion, you will be unable to build more than 1 warbird at first.  Even if the opponent can't kill a lone Cehlaer, they can easily push it back without taking a single loss, which means you lose that critical map control and they can raid your wimpy miners.  A fullblown Warbird rush like I used to always do is only viable against noobs.

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 3:43 am

Incidentally, 2 Intrepids, 2 K'Vorts (TaQ - Martok in this case come out about even), or 2 S-2 do kill a single Norexan each with MPW on (Intrepids literally slaughter them), and 2 Intrepids comes off significantly cheaper than a Norexan, while 2 K'Vorts comes out at about the same price (all without the cost of MPW factored in) and Dominion is Dominion with regard to costs.

Other ships that are counters are indeed strong counters and do very well against Norexans - most shorties in fact beat out the ship per cost with a very high cost-efficiency rating and are available very early too. That's with the costly MPW on mind you.

[Tryptic]

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 4:06 am

Last edited by Tryptic on February 2nd, 2011, 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

It looks like all these ships are dealing 24% extra damage in 3.15, but still it's true that Warbirds are countered easily.  Once again, while it's true that the Warbird can cloak out easily, the fact remains that it was driven off and is unable to do anything until it repairs.  2-3 monsoons for a cehlaer, 2-3 intrepids for a norexan...these numbers aren't hard to get at all.

EDIT:

After playing with Warbirds and paying close attention to their balance, I've realized that warbirds will become VERY underpowered once shield recharge is gone.  Up till now their staying power in a fight has been artificial, I hardly ever use them without Generix Supports keeping them alive.  And considering the massive loss of resources when one dies... they need a cost reduction or a boost or SOMETHING to keep them from becoming useless.  Forget what I said about nerfing MPW.

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 6:07 am

After playing with Warbirds and paying close attention to their balance, I've realized that warbirds will become VERY underpowered once shield recharge is gone.  Up till now their staying power in a fight has been artificial, I hardly ever use them without Generix Supports keeping them alive.  And considering the massive loss of resources when one dies... they need a cost reduction or a boost or SOMETHING to keep them from becoming useless.  Forget what I said about nerfing MPW.

Hmm ... well ... I'm not sure I agree with you there .  The Warbirds are still very powerful, but I feel that they enter the game (generally) when defensive abilities are no longer so important.  If you rush Warbirds then the Defensive stuff matter A LOT, but if you tech up to Warbirds normally through the course of the game you've generally got things to tank for you .

  MPW is enormously powerful and (IMO) makes the Norexan stand out amongst the birds simply because it can hack down just about anything.  The Big D is next as it's one of the few Romulan ships armed with torpedoes.  I don't think they need any changes, but again I would not be opposed to a slight cost reduc on the Warbird yard .

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 10:05 am

the only warbird that would truly be overpowered with a cheaper warbird yard is the Norexan, as the Tal-Shiar Academy is easy to build before transitioning to warbirds but the Upgrade Facility is useful ONLY for D-rhienns and D'Deridex.

I wouldn't recommend lowering the cost of the Warbird Yard without also dulling the effect of MPW.

Currently, if you try to warbird rush AND claim your expansion, you will be unable to build more than 1 warbird at first.  Even if the opponent can't kill a lone Cehlaer, they can easily push it back without taking a single loss, which means you lose that critical map control and they can raid your wimpy miners.  A fullblown Warbird rush like I used to always do is only viable against noobs.

Don't forget that you can't build a warbird yard with Tal Shiar Academy only. You'd still need the research institute, which has no use for Norexans. That means you can't really do an early warbird strat with Norexans right now, since you need a massive amount of Dil to get one of them out. By that time you are outnumbered. Cehler/Eresis is possible, but Norexan seems quite suicidal to me.
If we lower the costs for a warbird yard we should also reduce the costs of the Klingon Imperial yard .

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 2:50 pm

also ignoring that I told something about 6 B'rels which have manual targeting which means the Cehlaer is dead (cloaking or not cloaking) if singled out

didnt u read that i included counters and decloak in the exclusions? DUH if u hard counter someone and take away a critical advantage they have you are gonna do well vs them. i was ignoring that because its situational and i was talking in general. where cehlaers certainly can cloak away with strong def.

it basically only has its dps. Which was my point

i disagree, it isnt weak def either. it doesnt deserve to lose anything def or off. its not as strong in def as the big D, but the big D isnt as strong offensively as the norexan.

    @ Myles:  Do not underestimate the powers of the emp-  whoops of the MPW .  It turns the ship into a counter-breaking beast.  It'll slap down Intrepids, K'vorts, S-2's, and lots of other ships that are supposed to technically be the counter.  The other Warbirds cannot do this and can be rendered very ineffective if the enemy fields the right thing.

why are you saying this @ me lol? i LOVE MPW (my initials are MPW) its awesome. i dont think it needs a nerfing at all. my stance is that all warbirds are definitely more useful than people give them credit. make warbirds earlier and cehlaers will become an issue since early game you cant kill them without hard countering and decloaking them.

A fullblown Warbird rush like I used to always do is only viable against noobs.

i disagree, in 1v1s its too slow, but in a team game teching fast can be good, since u get more wiggle room timewise.

but Norexan seems quite suicidal to me.

norexan rush is indeed stupid, as it should be, this is a ship near the top of the tech tree, the tavara sits higher as the fairy. you wouldnt do a sovvie/neggie/v13 rush would you lol?

i think warbirds in general are worth their cost since they can absorb fire and are hard to kill without countering imo.

i'd like cheaper bird yard but i wouldnt wanna run the risk of making cehlaer rush too strong. 2 cehlaers can make a mockery of miners cos of beam weapons.

maybe if warbird yard did get reduced in cost by quite a bit, but there was a relatively cheap and time costing research needed at the research facility to get cloaks for warbirds. not expensive like klingon large cloaks, but means that rushing to cehlaers would leave you without cloak, but transitioning smoothly into warbirds would give u cloaks reasonably well

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 5:46 pm

Oops, maybe I meant someone else .

  My apologies good sir.  Expect a robo-duck in the mail.

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 5:54 pm

didnt u read that i included counters and decloak in the exclusions? DUH if u hard counter someone and take away a critical advantage they have you are gonna do well vs them. i was ignoring that because its situational and i was talking in general. where cehlaers certainly can cloak away with strong def.

[glow=red,2,300]counters and decloak (I assume you meant something like a ping) cannot be ignored, B'Rels DO more damage to Cehlaers because of their range, and thanks to manual targetting the B'rel can keep cloaked ships visible (when used in groups) since 1 of 3 B'Rels will reveal the just trying-to-cloak ship even when the other two didn't succeed with MT. Sure, if you reduce B'Rel and Cehlaer to OV and DV and compare them, the Cehlaer gets the win, but that's not how the game works.[/glow]


i disagree, it isnt weak def either. it doesnt deserve to lose anything def or off. its not as strong in def as the big D, but the big D isnt as strong offensively as the norexan.

[glow=red,2,300]Not weak, but also not strong. On the first impression it may seem the Norexan has at least good shielding and hull, but even a Vorcha (which is way older) lasts longer. [/glow]

posted on February 2nd, 2011, 6:46 pm

   My apologies good sir.  Expect a robo-duck in the mail.

i'd rather have a peking duck 

you've gotten be kidding me raven, your post cant be quoted its such a mess lol. take your stuff outside of the quotes.

counters and decloak (I assume you meant something like a ping) cannot be ignored, B'Rels DO more damage to Cehlaers because of their range, and thanks to manual targetting the B'rel can keep cloaked ships visible (when used in groups) since 1 of 3 B'Rels will reveal the just trying-to-cloak ship even when the other two didn't succeed with MT. Sure, if you reduce B'Rel and Cehlaer to OV and DV and compare them, the Cehlaer gets the win, but that's not how the game works.

you are missing the point, i'll repeat it. i was talking in general, not cehlaers vs brels (thats specific), im talking about cehlaers vs early game ships. there are other ships in the early game than the brel. your points about cehlaer vs brel are technically correct (which is the best kinda of correct!) but not what i was talking about.

Not weak, but also not strong. On the first impression it may seem the Norexan has at least good shielding and hull, but even a Vorcha (which is way older) lasts longer.

i disagree, i think norexans are strong enough. vorchas are tanks, being strong is a trait of the vorcha. like the big D. comparing norexans to vorcha is a bad comparison.