3.1.0 Balancing Change Requests
posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:51 pm
Now that it has been about a week since the patch has been out, there has been much discussion as to the changes and balance of the game. I know some people have been a little angry, and others have even deleted forum accounts. 
The thing we have to remember is that this is a professional level game run by only a handful of people and is free to us because they love making it. And they are not afraid to try new things. 
There are a lot of new features added, not just for players, but for other modders, which has helped the greater modding community. Also, as with any major release, things will not stay the way they are now, but they will tweak the game. For every 3.0.5 or 3.0.7, there's a 3.0.4 and 3.0.6 (Some of you know what I'm talking about! 
)
Also, though I have some issues with the balance and will give a general list shortly, I wanted to add some of the things that I really thought were cool. First, Avalons and fighter carriers. Amazing. I used to crap on Avalons and the Phalanx (haven't tried that one out, but I will
), but the fighter carriers and fighter effects not only look cool, but the damage from the fighters seems decent enough to give them a spot in my fleet. 
Of course the user interface is beautiful. Nice and clean. I'm very pleased with how things are done. Very, very nice work.
I would say that pretty much all Borg modules are useful now, and Borg early game ships have value again. Good work. While the passives are strong, and I'll get into that, I like the idea of them. Also, Ziech's models are very nice. Especially the B'rel and K'vort models, which were crap before. These ones look amazing! 
I could go on, but this post is already going to be long. So here is "The List" as it has been dubbed. keep in mind that I usually would have written more on these as to avoid misunderstanding and confusion. But to save space I have been more concise (it's already long enough!
). So anyone reading this, please do me the courtesy of taking this in the best possible light if you're not sure at first. Mostly, they are general, overall changes that are not race specific. They try to address some of the global balancing issues the game seems to have right now.
The List
-Tactical Long Ranged vessels should only include ships with 360 firing arcs that could potentially “kite”. Ships with forward firing arcs should not be included in this class, as they achieve balance by not being able to return fire while on the run. Or they should be reevaluated in some way, since they can’t “kite”.
-The extremes of the speed range should be normalized some. Some short ranged ships should be a little slower, and some long ranged ships should be a little faster than they are now. When we first heard the news post about kiting and the introduction of interception, I guess I read that as a few units from each race would be an interceptor unit. These interceptor units would be there to say, “You may kite if you like, but you will be smacked down hard by my much cheaper and faster to build interceptor.
This would create a proper check against fast, durable, long-ranged vessels with 360 degree firing arcs.
It would also give long ranged vessels back some usefulness, as short ranged ships are effectively the only vessels of choice in multiplayer. It’s possible to zip in and zip out before ships take too much damage. The susa has a speed of 170, for example. With ships this fast, it almost feels like the warp feature has been turned back on for many short ranged ships. I know I misread the news post it was in, but that’s what made sense to me. Specific interceptor units would also give first tier ships usefulness throughout the game, even in the later stages when your fleet comprises more battleships.
-Some turrets received passives that in my opinion, hurt them more than help. The Dominion basic turret, for example, does more damage to long ranged vessels and receives more damage from short ranged vessels. Since many early game ships are short ranged, this puts this turret at a significant disadvantage. I’ve seen b’rels and K’vorts destroy them quickly, when their pulses should significantly impair them from doing so.
-While the passives are a great addition, they are perhaps too powerful. For example, the autonomous AI reduces damage from medium ranged sources by a third! That’s really hard for some ships to deal with, as certain races must spam their first tier ship for quite some time while establishing an economy. I would love to see the effects of these passives fall somewhere between 5-15% in terms of effectiveness. Just enough to be a soft counter, not a hard one.
-This one is not quite as pressing as some of the other issues, but each patch seems to add increased costs, especially to capital ships. While some would argue that it’s to keep people from only spamming battleships, these are usually the people who have no clue what they are talking about. Fleet Operations is not Armada 2, and ships like the dominion bomber and the klingon susa are strong, cheap counters to battleships. I do have concerns that while buildable, battleships will have less strategic appeal than 2 vessels that equal the same cost, but are far more effective or faster. I do understand that some battleships have powerful passives like ablative armor, so it's possible that this passive warrents the extra cost. Although some cap ships do not, and should either receive one, or perhaps have their costs lowered.
-Also, I’ve been asked to include in this post that the Chor’s beam be made stronger. While no one wants to see a return of the beta2 Chor, its beam really doesn’t do anything but look pretty. Perhaps a happy medium could be found?
Dominion Specific changes
-Swap the passives of the bug and the bomber. The bug is an aggressive unit, so fast tracking computers would suit it better, and autonomous AI would help the bomber remain sturdy under fire. It would be awesome if these two ships could be faster as well.
That's it, for now. Although I'm sure more will be added in discussion. One thing I ask is that we keep discussion civil. Normally, I'd be more inclined to be a little sarcastic. There's going to be a lot of posts from people who only play against the AI, or people who only play one race; and there's also going to be people who are competent with all the races, and have a good feel for where each race is at during the different phases of the game. Above all, I ask that people be respectful of others regardless of what their understanding of the game is, and please only add something if it has to do with the mechanics of the game.
Well, as a Vorlon once said: And so it begins....
The thing we have to remember is that this is a professional level game run by only a handful of people and is free to us because they love making it. And they are not afraid to try new things. There are a lot of new features added, not just for players, but for other modders, which has helped the greater modding community. Also, as with any major release, things will not stay the way they are now, but they will tweak the game. For every 3.0.5 or 3.0.7, there's a 3.0.4 and 3.0.6 (Some of you know what I'm talking about! )Also, though I have some issues with the balance and will give a general list shortly, I wanted to add some of the things that I really thought were cool. First, Avalons and fighter carriers. Amazing. I used to crap on Avalons and the Phalanx (haven't tried that one out, but I will
), but the fighter carriers and fighter effects not only look cool, but the damage from the fighters seems decent enough to give them a spot in my fleet. Of course the user interface is beautiful. Nice and clean. I'm very pleased with how things are done. Very, very nice work.
I would say that pretty much all Borg modules are useful now, and Borg early game ships have value again. Good work. While the passives are strong, and I'll get into that, I like the idea of them. Also, Ziech's models are very nice. Especially the B'rel and K'vort models, which were crap before. These ones look amazing! I could go on, but this post is already going to be long. So here is "The List" as it has been dubbed. keep in mind that I usually would have written more on these as to avoid misunderstanding and confusion. But to save space I have been more concise (it's already long enough!
). So anyone reading this, please do me the courtesy of taking this in the best possible light if you're not sure at first. Mostly, they are general, overall changes that are not race specific. They try to address some of the global balancing issues the game seems to have right now. The List
-Tactical Long Ranged vessels should only include ships with 360 firing arcs that could potentially “kite”. Ships with forward firing arcs should not be included in this class, as they achieve balance by not being able to return fire while on the run. Or they should be reevaluated in some way, since they can’t “kite”.
-The extremes of the speed range should be normalized some. Some short ranged ships should be a little slower, and some long ranged ships should be a little faster than they are now. When we first heard the news post about kiting and the introduction of interception, I guess I read that as a few units from each race would be an interceptor unit. These interceptor units would be there to say, “You may kite if you like, but you will be smacked down hard by my much cheaper and faster to build interceptor.
This would create a proper check against fast, durable, long-ranged vessels with 360 degree firing arcs.
It would also give long ranged vessels back some usefulness, as short ranged ships are effectively the only vessels of choice in multiplayer. It’s possible to zip in and zip out before ships take too much damage. The susa has a speed of 170, for example. With ships this fast, it almost feels like the warp feature has been turned back on for many short ranged ships. I know I misread the news post it was in, but that’s what made sense to me. Specific interceptor units would also give first tier ships usefulness throughout the game, even in the later stages when your fleet comprises more battleships.
-Some turrets received passives that in my opinion, hurt them more than help. The Dominion basic turret, for example, does more damage to long ranged vessels and receives more damage from short ranged vessels. Since many early game ships are short ranged, this puts this turret at a significant disadvantage. I’ve seen b’rels and K’vorts destroy them quickly, when their pulses should significantly impair them from doing so.
-While the passives are a great addition, they are perhaps too powerful. For example, the autonomous AI reduces damage from medium ranged sources by a third! That’s really hard for some ships to deal with, as certain races must spam their first tier ship for quite some time while establishing an economy. I would love to see the effects of these passives fall somewhere between 5-15% in terms of effectiveness. Just enough to be a soft counter, not a hard one.
-This one is not quite as pressing as some of the other issues, but each patch seems to add increased costs, especially to capital ships. While some would argue that it’s to keep people from only spamming battleships, these are usually the people who have no clue what they are talking about. Fleet Operations is not Armada 2, and ships like the dominion bomber and the klingon susa are strong, cheap counters to battleships. I do have concerns that while buildable, battleships will have less strategic appeal than 2 vessels that equal the same cost, but are far more effective or faster. I do understand that some battleships have powerful passives like ablative armor, so it's possible that this passive warrents the extra cost. Although some cap ships do not, and should either receive one, or perhaps have their costs lowered.
-Also, I’ve been asked to include in this post that the Chor’s beam be made stronger. While no one wants to see a return of the beta2 Chor, its beam really doesn’t do anything but look pretty. Perhaps a happy medium could be found?
Dominion Specific changes
-Swap the passives of the bug and the bomber. The bug is an aggressive unit, so fast tracking computers would suit it better, and autonomous AI would help the bomber remain sturdy under fire. It would be awesome if these two ships could be faster as well.
That's it, for now. Although I'm sure more will be added in discussion. One thing I ask is that we keep discussion civil. Normally, I'd be more inclined to be a little sarcastic. There's going to be a lot of posts from people who only play against the AI, or people who only play one race; and there's also going to be people who are competent with all the races, and have a good feel for where each race is at during the different phases of the game. Above all, I ask that people be respectful of others regardless of what their understanding of the game is, and please only add something if it has to do with the mechanics of the game.
Well, as a Vorlon once said: And so it begins....
posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:53 pm
posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:49 pm
posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:56 pm
Last edited by tom on January 16th, 2010, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- please consider changing k'vort or b'rel (preferably k'vort) so that k'vort is not just a stronger copy of b'rel
- regen cube having a speed of 100 is disturbing . with decent micro its hard to kill as most long range ships r slower
- cascade feedback is doing almost no damage (or i missed it doing any significant damage to norways)
- dom heavy cruiser was a nice counter to destroyers but now its missing a passive
- dom cruiser has different range for torpedoes and pulses. can it be done with other vessels?
- dom sensor station costs 660/460
:guns: ... yeah - dom lacks a ship between escort cruiser and heavy battleships. siege cruiser is nice but its still support
posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:57 pm
posted on January 16th, 2010, 11:02 pm
I’ve seen b’rels and K’vorts destroy them quickly, when their pulses should significantly impair them from doing so.
What he meant by this is that stations take 60% less from pulses, but because of the passive... they are actually quite weak - to all short ranged weapons, not just pulses.
The long range versus short range has so far been added the D'deridex's rank up, and it will probably be added to other Romulan ships as well. I don't think all units should get this, as normal ship ranges are supposed to emphasize this (as well as accuracy and just sheer power). If you are saying that units limit their range to short for stronger firepower - then what's wrong with what we currently have? K'vort and B'rel have a great deal of firepower up close
.I agree that the B'rel should be the fastest - which is just supplementary to why the SuS'a's speed needs to be lowered (Mal's reason is the foremost obviously - that you can just get in, demolish, and get out).
One specific thing that hasn't been discussed much is the potential for Negh'var kiting. The speed of the Negh'var against Borg now allows Weapon Overload (long ranged) to be used as a very powerful kiting tool. Just zoom in, release, and zoom out, and almost every Borg ship is too slow to catch up (I think with the exception of the Probe, Scube, and Detector
).
posted on January 17th, 2010, 12:41 am
posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:37 pm
posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:50 pm
posted on January 17th, 2010, 6:24 pm
posted on January 17th, 2010, 10:36 pm
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