Tryptic's Mod: opinions needed

posted on July 18th, 2014, 4:59 pm

So as many of you know, I am currently chugging along on Tryptic's Mod V2, getting closer to a release. I want to talk a bit about done of the ships that need to be tweaked, and hopefully hear what other people think about them.

First up is the Klingon Veqlaragh. In its original version, this ship is dilithium heavy and has off/def off 23/12 with artillery range. Its speed is high enough to make it a dangerous kiting ship but its defense is so terrible that one false step will be fatal.

In Tryptic's Mod, I increased its defense to 20 and raised the tri and supply costs. The idea was that tritanium can be used for either ship upgrades or certain specialist ships like the Veqlaragh. Unfortunately the current Veqlaragh is crazy overpowered because a cloud of them can decimate enemies without ever getting close.

My current plan is to lower the defense by 4, back down to 16, and give the ship a limited arc of 3/4 pi. This will make it harder, but not impossible to kite with them. The extra cost will remain, but remember that artillery range is also increasing 1100->1200 so the extra cost is still needed.

Next on the list is the Dominion bug and its puretech upgrade. This ship's added defense lets it join any dominion fleet as a solid medium range tank, but the cost compared to other dominion ships is to high. I've started by lowering the tri cost by 20, plus another 30 for the alpha variant. The two alpha variants cost a lot of supply and are meant for games where your supply income is so high you can't use it all.

Another small thing to note is that the C-11 is getting a lower supply cost: 50 supply was a crushing amount for such a small ship.

The final ship (for now) is the Federation Nova. It was meant to serve as a smaller counterpart to the defiant that would give Mayson his own unique late game despite not having the Avalon and Phalanx. Unfortunately the stats are a bit too high. I am looking at either a small stat reduction, cost increase, or both.

One result of this will be that the defiant is just a better bang for your buck than the nova in terms of resources. The only advantage it will hold over the defiant is that the defiant is incredibly slow to build and will tie upseveral eraudi yards, while the nova builds quickly from your antares yards which likely won't have anything better to do.

So, what do you guys think? Are there any other ships I've make overpowered or underpowered?

posted on July 19th, 2014, 7:47 am

Hello Tryptic,


Borg more powerfull (starbase, defense station, all ship), technology assimilator (like aramada 2), transwarp drive for all ship.

Dominion: more powerfull defense station

Romulan: more powerfull defense station

....... so much first


Thanks!

posted on July 19th, 2014, 1:41 pm

Hey Tryptic, I've been waiting for V2 to try your mod. It looks good so far.

I would reduce the Veqlaragh's rate of fire to match the def boost. If the player is going to spam them, then make it so more have to be made for a cloud of death. At this point, enough time, resources, and most importantly the player's attention has been devoted to this spam to create a specialist weakness. Then its simply a question of the correct *insert race here* counter to the Veqlaragh spam.

For the Dom, I've never understood them. I like the balancing act between tri/di/sup mining. Were it up to me, most if not all Dom ships would be the weakest of their class, but also the cheapest. Sabers, bop, whatever that Rom mosquito's called can all wipe the floor with the Dom bug. More to that point, the bug kamikaze does almost nothing. I give up a ship and the other guy just gets scratched. On a few occasions the other ship is destroyed. It should at least guarantee the destruction of an equal sized chassis. Otherwise, it just feels like a bug on the windshield.

I've never understood the freakishly high cost since you have to build huge fleets to make a dif anyway. Also, all the halfway decent ships have build caps. What?! My idea of Dom; cheap, weak fleets with one or two expensive, long con time dreadnoughts.

For Fedi, I like the buffed Nova. I would increase build time to try to keep its stats. I'd also try speed reduction. If that doesn't work, then I would lower its stats and cost and make it like a saber with higher def. I might also remove its special and give its torps a small buff as an avatar award.

posted on July 19th, 2014, 3:32 pm

@emmett:

You said plenty of things I'm already considering here are some short answers:

Borg starbase: no
Borg turrets: yes, using special abilities
Borg ships: more specials early game
Tech assimilator: sadly no
Transwarp on all ships: haha no, unless it's possible to disable it for a few seconds when the ship takes damage
Dominion turrets: no
Romulan turrets: yes


@Jinseta:

The problem with combat artillery ships, which I didn't figure out until I started modding, is that they exist outside the passive system. There are no direct counters with an offense or defense boost against artillery, so spam is harder to deal with.

I hadn't considered lowering their damage, since they need to be able to take down structures... but now the Klingons have the artillery chonaq so it could be acceptable.

Increasing bug ram damage is on my to do list, because I agree. Maybe not enough to take out a ship at full health since that would produce some stupid overpowered strategies, but definitely a lot more than it is now, especially since I increased the cost of the ship itself.

posted on July 19th, 2014, 5:50 pm

The problem with combat artillery ships, which I didn't figure out until I started modding, is that they exist outside the passive system. There are no direct counters with an offense or defense boost against artillery, so spam is harder to deal with.

I hadn't considered lowering their damage, since they need to be able to take down structures... but now the Klingons have the artillery chonaq so it could be acceptable.

I see your point. However, I believe that sometimes the game should force you to think outside the box. Everyone has short, med, and long range vessels. Everyone has specials and buffs. Suddenly, one side has artillery ships and you don't. Time for some fleet shuffling, or spam with your highest def ship. You could send two fleets one of them cloaked. Dance just out of range while the cloaked fleet moves in. Dom has those Defenders. I ****in hate those things... unless I'm Dom. Then they're my best friend. This is the point where the brain is more effective than any weapon in your arsenal.

That said, the 3/4 pi firing arc sounds good. That's how I envision any artillery weapons working anyway save for missiles, but I'd try the firing rate first. Also, this just occurred to me, you could increase the miss chance. If they're supposed to be base killers, make moving targets harder to hit.

Increasing bug ram damage is on my to do list, because I agree. Maybe not enough to take out a ship at full health since that would produce some stupid overpowered strategies, but definitely a lot more than it is now, especially since I increased the cost of the ship itself.

Neat. Maybe you could throw in random system destroyed guarantee instead of the temporary engine failure. You could balance it by slightly softening the damage it inflicts. Then I'd be willing to fork out for a few of them.

posted on July 19th, 2014, 9:03 pm

@emmett:

You said plenty of things I'm already considering here are some short answers:

Borg starbase: no -- Why?
Borg turrets: yes, using special abilities -- I miss multitarget firing
Borg ships: more specials early game
Tech assimilator: sadly no
Transwarp on all ships: haha no, unless it's possible to disable it for a few seconds when the ship takes damage
Dominion turrets: no -- Why? Romulan yes, Dominion not Very weak
Romulan turrets: yes

Thanks!

posted on July 20th, 2014, 8:08 am

Mayson Feds don't need a late-game unit built from the Antares yard, they need a Chassis 2 unit that complements the Akira. In 3.2.7 the Nova is a Chassis 1 destroyer forced into Chassis 2; Intrepids are superior in all ways except for the +2 warp in slots at vet.

Nova needs a bump in cost and build time to bring it in line with the heavier vessel, and stats in the region of 22 / 26, while perhaps dropping speed to 130.

I still think Nova and Intrepid are reversed in tier (chassis 1 for the former, 2 for the latter) though.

posted on July 20th, 2014, 9:22 am

Mayson Feds don't need a late-game unit built from the Antares yard, they need a Chassis 2 unit that complements the Akira. In 3.2.7 the Nova is a Chassis 1 destroyer forced into Chassis 2; Intrepids are superior in all ways except for the +2 warp in slots at vet.

Nova needs a bump in cost and build time to bring it in line with the heavier vessel, and stats in the region of 22 / 26, while perhaps dropping speed to 130.

I still think Nova and Intrepid are reversed in tier (chassis 1 for the former, 2 for the latter) though.

The RTS role of a Nova in 32x is more of a supporting damage booster, and it does a fine job doing so. You don't build it for more warp in slots, you build it for it's torp special, and the option to complement Intrepids well on fast raids / kills. They also scale nicely if you start with Intrepids / warpins, and move on to Akiras.

Moving the Intrepid to Chassis 2 would btw. cause a lot of balancing issues, same goes for Nova on Chassis 1.

Just my 2 cents.

posted on July 20th, 2014, 8:48 pm

On thematic grounds, I agree that the Nova should be below the Intrepid in the tech tree. But the Intrepid is currently at the core of Fed gameplay, so I don't want to mess with it.

When I look at the Feds, I tend to divide their ships between Fast fleet and Slow fleet. Since they cannot cloak, slow Fed ships have to stay near a yard or in a large group where they won't be caught and wiped out by a larger force. Fast ships, on the other hand, can move more freely.

Chassis 1 unlocks the Monsoon and Intrepid, which are both fast ships. The first slow ship is the Akira with Chassis 2. If Chassis 2 also unlocks the Nova, it competes too closely with the Intrepid. If the Nova is slightly worse, it will never be used. If I make it better than the Intrepid, then the Intrepid won't be used much. Chassis 1->2 is too short of a distance for two ships that are so similar to each other.

@emmett:

All of the starbases are balanced against each other, I don't think the Borg need a stronger one than the other races. Now, in my experience the Borg starbase is upgraded most often, but that comes with a fair price.
As for turrets, the Romulans have a pea shooter while the Dominion have Perimeters. I don't think Dom needs more turret strength

@Jinseta

I forgot to mention, 2 Veqlaraghs can keep a ship's engines permanently disabled while the others destroy it. Borg beware

I could perhaps give it the miss chance of the Teutoburg, or perhaps even double damage vs buildings. That would allow me to lower its damage against regular ships.

In a partially related note, I'm going to reduce the range of Torpedo Turrets and Romulan projectile turrets. I don't believe that turrets should have artillery range, that defeats the purpose of artillery. They will still have the artillery damage profile, which means no passives counter them.

posted on July 21st, 2014, 12:55 am

In a partially related note, I'm going to reduce the range of Torpedo Turrets and Romulan projectile turrets. I don't believe that turrets should have artillery range, that defeats the purpose of artillery. They will still have the artillery damage profile, which means no passives counter them.

... Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

*inhales* That's bad news for us turtles, but it's your mod. I guess as long as there's a decent way to castle, it'll be alright. There should be at least one. Maybe a bigger more expensive station for artillery. With a cap... maybe...

Maybe ignoring passives will still make them worthwhile. I'll save those concerns for when I try v2.

I could be wrong, but don't certain weapons become more accurate when a vessel is stationary and thus automatically accurate on buildings? Making the Veqlaragh's accuracy dependent on motion might be the way to go. Those are all the ideas I can think up for balancing the weapon.

posted on July 22nd, 2014, 11:02 pm

I'll still argue that what's needed of the Nova is a proper Chassis 2 complement to the Akira. Right now it's a mess of contradictions:

It's got the speed and fragility of a raider but more than 50% of its firepower, and its support special, is in its torpedoes.

It's got the speed to be a great skirmisher but more than 50% of its firepower has a limited firing arc.

It's special and medium range would make it a good option to stand in the battleline, but Intrepids can't tank for it and its speed means it leaps forward on kills and its fragility ensures it doesn't survive to get back to the yard.

The supply cost of the special makes it a trap for Feds. Use it three times and that's an Akira that could have been fielded. See a Fed player using the special (or the torp Nebula special, for that matter)? Kill the Nova, raid his mining. Supply lock the bastard; he's got no way to get it back other than buying or ranking Novas to Officer (hah!).

It's a shitty, shitty ship in 3.2.7. But Mayson does not need an Antares yard endgame ship; E2s and Sovereigns should form his brute squad, with Intrepids, Defiants, and Akiras in a skirmish line ahead of them.

posted on July 23rd, 2014, 12:44 am

Inspiration just struck on the Nova. There isn't really room for it in the mid-game, but there is in the early game.

Make the Nova an alternate Chassis 0 ship to the Sabre.

Adjust the stats and cost accordingly, keep the passive, lose the special.

posted on July 23rd, 2014, 8:12 am

I'll still argue that what's needed of the Nova is a proper Chassis 2 complement to the Akira. Right now it's a mess of contradictions:

It's got the speed and fragility of a raider but more than 50% of its firepower, and its support special, is in its torpedoes.

It's got the speed to be a great skirmisher but more than 50% of its firepower has a limited firing arc.

It's special and medium range would make it a good option to stand in the battleline, but Intrepids can't tank for it and its speed means it leaps forward on kills and its fragility ensures it doesn't survive to get back to the yard.

The supply cost of the special makes it a trap for Feds. Use it three times and that's an Akira that could have been fielded. See a Fed player using the special (or the torp Nebula special, for that matter)? Kill the Nova, raid his mining. Supply lock the bastard; he's got no way to get it back other than buying or ranking Novas to Officer (hah!).

It's a shitty, shitty ship in 3.2.7. But Mayson does not need an Antares yard endgame ship; E2s and Sovereigns should form his brute squad, with Intrepids, Defiants, and Akiras in a skirmish line ahead of them.

It's not a raider, nor a skirmisher, and not "shitty" either - it's a complement to your existing Photon Torpedo based vessels for mid and late game.

Intrepids got the same def value, Monsons and Sabers tank for it, so do the weaker Warpins. The Nova ranks up fairly quickly, and gains mostly on def value. A vet1 Nova has a higher def value than a vet1 Intrepid, and so on.
The higher speed and range ensures you will get it out more easily, while it can always keep up with your fastest ship to make use of it's special.

Killing the mining of your opponent, and / or supply lock him, works against any faction and BTO.

At the point you were mentioning the Yoyodyne Neb special, i could only facepalm. Overall you seriously underestimate the insane DPS increase of Novas special, and i assume you just don't know how to use it.
Please learn how to play first, before you bring up statements like you've done.

posted on July 23rd, 2014, 8:17 am

Inspiration just struck on the Nova. There isn't really room for it in the mid-game, but there is in the early game.

Make the Nova an alternate Chassis 0 ship to the Sabre.

Adjust the stats and cost accordingly, keep the passive, lose the special.

Actually that's not a bad idea, the nova was definitely shown to be the inferior ship to the intrepid. I'd keep the special, just reduce its effects and costs to match its new position. I'd also move more of its DPS to phasers, it'd keep the torp, but it would be more phaser than torp. So that a fed player wanting a torp focussed fleet will still need chassis 1.

a new chassis 2 antares ship could still be used. Maybe another FO original design. Unless they move E2 down to antares and make a new ship for the eraudi.

posted on August 14th, 2014, 2:54 am

Now that V2 is out, I've been dividing my goals between short term and long term. I wanted to revisit this thread with my current ideas:

Overall, I think Mayson absolutely does need a late-game ship. I don't think there should be any avatars that encourage players to not reach the end of their tech tree, a problem that he suffers from in stock. In the short term, the nova needs to fill this role and fleet supply is a good way to do it.

In the long term, I want to repurpose the Norway for that role. But the goal I have ends up being very similar to the current nova: we don't need another late-game short range ship, long range doesn't seem to suit the Norway, and neither does the support class. All that's left is a late-game, fast, medium-range ship. At which point the nova needs another role, either as a chassis 0 ship, or a chassis 2 ship...

Or perhaps it could require Starfleet Science. The non-engineering fed start is good for saber spam but it limits you to sabers, canaverals, and Miranda IIs, all of which are long range and in danger of being countered. The Science requirement would allow the nova's stats to be a little bit higher without being overpowered, while still being useful for non-engineering starts. It still may not get used very often though, since there are just so many ships in the fed lineup.