Question for discussion:

posted on December 17th, 2012, 9:34 am

Do you think warp-ins should require chassis lvl 2 (or some other tech) and fed ship build times should be reduced?

The reason behind this question is the fact is that I am experiencing a strange phenomenon where going anything but early warp-ins/warp-in rush is sub optimal for feds. Going E2: you're gonna get out produced. Going Akiras: You better not lose any of them or you're screwed. Going Early double yard: You have the same number of ships as with warp-ins, but you are missing out on damage. Going early Avalons: yea right.

What do you think?

posted on December 17th, 2012, 1:23 pm

Well, thing is that putting the sfc away from early game the only feasable thing left to do for a fed player is building chassis one. That makes fed easier to counter since you know exactly what kind of specialists you can expect from them early on, and also it would make fed less fun to play, lacking build order diversity. Good thing; absolutely annihilating warp-in rush will not be a point of concern anymore.

Maybe the whole idea of getting those quasi-free ships should be revised. I honestly hope V4 implements warpins in another way since it always seems to be one of the big topics in balancing.

To your idea: Maybe Eraudi yard instead of chassis 2. If I can build akiras I don't really want lousy sensor nebulas or squishy centaur's anymore. Eraudi yard means the player want to tech up in some way or another, and cost-wise it should be around chassis 1+2 as well.
Lore: SFC will not send ships into prolonged combat situations without the proper support facilities to repair sustained damage on larger ships.

On another note, I think it's not impossible to survive without warpins as fed. But yea, the only alternative that will leave you in a competetive position will be double yarding monsoons/intrepids which gets very old, very fast.

posted on December 17th, 2012, 2:01 pm

... Going E2: you're gonna get out produced. Going Akiras: You better not lose any of them or you're screwed....
Going Early double yard: You have the same number of ships as with warp-ins, but you are missing out on damage. Going early Avalons: yea right.

Pretty much the same with early Vorcha, or anything else.
So basically you're describing a Tier3 rush, which usually should NOT work for any race against any decent opponent. As an example think about a Vorcha rush, without kbq or QwaDuj prior to it you will be doomed, except the enemy is teching up straight as well of course, or just plays quite noob'ish.

The double Antares is usually the better start in competitive (duel) games against most races, and grants you the more suitable and wanted counter. Another example: chasing down Leahvals with slow E1s who got ADAI is not very advisable.

Personally i would buff (yes, increase the strength) of warpins, or make them upgradeable, but move them in the tech tree to a later point (T3/4?), and maybe every warpin call should cost?

I've seen you posting edits on other Fed vessels like the Saber, this is another fancy solution overall. Adjusting rarely used ones like Saber, Norway, Remore, to a more versatile role, increasing the overall diversity of Feds starting at T2.

Anyways, there are plenty of solutions, depending on what you want the Feds to become in future.
Don't forget their current benefits though, of 2nd cheapest yards, cheap and fast miners, good turrets, etc blabla.

[Zweistein000]

posted on December 17th, 2012, 3:43 pm

Last edited by Zweistein000 on December 17th, 2012, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

well in my rebalance there IS a reason to go double yarding (with that i means 2x antares), because in my mod sabers make small ships harder to kill, making them more viable and warp-ins may give you limited cloak detect, so that's decent against leahvals too.

Teching up in this game is next to impossible unless your enemy leaves you alone and even then he may have scouted you and has been preparing for a fight with you the entire game. This is why I'm mostly bad, because staying at tier 1/1.5 the entire game is boring.

Edit: A Vor'cha rush should be possible, but it means you're gonna play defensive to be strong mid game. Going straight for neg'vars/sovereign/norexian/tavara and such, but their presence should be felt even if you have only 1. Now 1 means nothing, except a ton resources wasted when enemy kills it.

posted on December 17th, 2012, 3:47 pm

Going Early double yard: You have the same number of ships as with warp-ins, but you are missing out on damage.

What do you think?

You are faster, get your expansion sooner and cover two positions with yards.

posted on December 17th, 2012, 3:49 pm

actually the expansions (if you are going early warp-ins and not warp-in rush) come at the same time.

posted on December 17th, 2012, 3:56 pm

Erm yes if you don't start with a turret first, but who does this against a skilled opponent while being heavily teching for warpins and having no defense for the miners?

posted on December 17th, 2012, 6:30 pm

At the moment, Warp-In is the Fed's primary free supply mechanism, something that most of the races have*. Unfortunately, it comes with ships that cost no resources as well, which is where the principle problem lies.

My suggestion is to make the up-front cost much greater (maybe 2000 dil 1000 tr and 250 supply -- something more in line with what you'd expect to pay for at least 2 warp-ins worth of ships; also keep the supply penalty on destruction), perhaps even add a Chassis 2 requirement, but reduce the supply part of the upgrade cost of the Newton to half or even a quarter of what it is.

Yes it makes achieving Warp-In very expensive, but on the other hand Feds will get easier access to repair ships and that should take over as the principle way the Feds get "free supply".

* Feds have warp-in, Klingons get supply on unit rank-up, Borg and Dominion have drip-feed supply. Romulans don't get one, although their fast cloak should ensure that most of the supply they spend actually hangs around.

posted on December 24th, 2012, 1:00 pm

I think that the "free" ships should stay that way since Federation players need that kind of advantage early on I believe. Since most of the "new" player such as me to a certain extent rely on Fed it's a good idea to have this forgiveness in the game.
However, sometimes Fed can be a real game breaker when you get two Galaxys during your first two warp-ins. I suggest that the chassis research and the available yards decide which ships you can get.
For instance, you have your first yard out and chasis 1. This will get you maybe two scouts and one light warship. Chasis 3 and Eraudi Yard could get you Galaxys.

Marry Christmas everyone

posted on December 24th, 2012, 1:21 pm

i agree with tailoring warpin so that powerful warpins don't immediately respond early.

my thoughts: sfc sends out a request for reinforcements, starfleet hq receives this request, and decides what resources they are willing to send to you. if you have a basic yard which can only produce basic ships (decided by chassis level) then your base isn't as important as another base in another sector that has an eraudi yard constructing sovvies. better warpins will be sent to more important bases.

a rhode island and centaur can both be delivered in the first warpin atm.

posted on December 24th, 2012, 2:53 pm

Leveling the warpins up as time progresses is a nice idea. One could argument that sfc is not willing to send larger ships into combat where there are not the proper yards present to repair a large battleship like a galaxy or descent. Making stuff dependant of the chassis research in conjunction with this could lead to something interesting. You think its possible to code?

posted on December 24th, 2012, 3:03 pm

yea.. that's possible to code.

posted on December 24th, 2012, 5:53 pm

I'd argue allowing chassis level +1 class vessels to be warped in. So Centaur and Excelsiors at chassis 0, Rhode Island, Ambassador, non-torpedo Nebulas at Chassis 1, and Galaxy if you have chassis 2 or 3. Teutoborg and Descent should keep their special arrangements.

The reason for that is the Fed player has spent the cost of a chassis research on getting warp-ins, and they should at least some sort of ship advantage for it.