Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations

Whay has the federation not devaliped transwarp drive?

They have saved a good number of former drowns and reanimated them. You would think with the dubree left behind the and the information available from debored people they would have the tech buy now... along with outher things like regunrations and adaption.

Yeah they tried to develop transwarp technology but Scotty removed a few bits from the engine, thus sabotaging Starfleet's efforts. This brazen act set back Federation transwarp research by decades, maybe even centuries, because the scotsman with the whisky problem is the only dude in the quadrant who understands how a transwarp engine works.

Actually, if I may be serious for a moment, bringing an alien technology back to Admiral Admirable does not mean the technology can just be connected to the Enterprise's USB port and work. Advanced technology has to be reverse engineered and understood. Imagine if the Roman Empire discovered a bunch of Intel Core 2 Duo processors. They'd probably bash them to bits to try to test their potential as armour.

not really.
you'll find that the Romans were ingenious. Maybe they would not have been able to decipher it, but they would not bash it to look for "armour".
Ironically, if you look at history a little more closely, the anglo-saxon and celtic "civilizations" are simply copies of Rome. Even the science we now have is merely an extension on Roman-Greek science. There has been no invention in the true sense when dealing with scientific knowledge (relativity is the only exception). Even Newton simply expanded on older Greek concepts related to gravity.

In essence, one would expect the "smash it up for armor" approach from today's people more than from Rome or ancient civilizations.
Who knows, if Roswell ever were real, one could pretty well imagine the Us military using "alien" tech more for weaponry than for anything else - spiritual or developmental.
Seems the more things change the more they stay the same.

I think there are also a couple pacts that the Federation has signed to not use this technology... also I believe Voyager developed something similar, but much more dangerous. Perhaps transwarp also requires the collective to function (immense computing power...)? There are a myriad of possiblities however...

To Serpicus:
Yes Romans were ingenious, but no they would not know what to do with the processors, probably similar to Feds and transwarp. Probably they would have been stored somewhere until...
According to your idea of what makes an invention, then nothing is actually an invention. I'm not going to even touch that argument aside from that comment that EVERY idea builds on another.
Likewise, hopefully you realize that much of the civilian technology we use, or will use, was the result of military pioneering. This is by no means a reparation for war, but that comment about the US military is just blatantly insulting.

Although I run the risk of starting a heated debate, I would more expect the "smash it up for armor" approach among people who have no wish to scientifically understand things... accordingly, I think there was a larger percentage "back then" who would not have been able to understand such things. I guess that's saying a lot about Rome then  :D  Il mio paese!

Likewise, if the more things change, the more they stay the same... then wouldn't you expect more ancient civilizations to also destroy tech just "like we do"? Your statement is contradictory in this regard.

I seem tom misunderstand your reference to Serpicus' post.  I don't see anything that ventures as far as to define the concept of invention.

"Ironically, if you look at history a little more closely, the anglo-saxon and celtic "civilizations" are simply copies of Rome. Even the science we now have is merely an extension on Roman-Greek science. There has been no invention in the true sense when dealing with scientific knowledge (relativity is the only exception). Even Newton simply expanded on older Greek concepts related to gravity."

That paragraph is all about invention... I know it doesn't directly define what invention is, but Serpicus clearly states that "there has been no invention in the true sense"... which means that there are no entirely new things (referring specifically to scientific knowledge in this case). According to this, nothing has ever been invented then.

Bah.

Keep in mind that I got 4 1/2 hours of sleep last night and spent 9 hours at college today.  :pinch:

I understand completely  :D. I is in colaage t0o  :sweatdrop:

Of course, there are no "entirely new" things. We agree. Without wanting to push ourselves into an unnecessary discussion that takes us off -topic I would just like to clarify what I was saying.

1. to claim that invention is based on gradual building on old ideas is a testament to lack of originality. It's nice that people develop themselves by building on old ideas. But event here we see a selective expansion on coarse chemistry and basic european physics. Everything is built on what is left of Greek ideas. But if one were to ask why we do not focus on things like for example - harnessing botanical resources to develop medicines like an expansion on Ayurveda for example (only an example) - we see a complete dearth of ability and will to pursue areas which are outside ancient Greco-Roman science and technology. The fact that we do not broach on such fields, given an absence of pre-inculcated information, shows how one sided and imitative our science and invention truly is.

So, when we say that Rome would not know what to do with something like a positronic brain, we shouldn't be so flattering to ourselves to assume that we wouldn't look for a spy satellite guidance system in something as remarkable as a positronic brain.

2. So yes, the more things change the more they stay the same.
To clarify, the only difference that I cited, was that ancient civilizations, even Rome, were less constrained by their own sanctimonious beliefs of being all-knowing, and allowed possibilities for improvement and understanding, by virtue of their not having to analyze an object based on "main-stream" ideas for fear of being ostracized by their scientific community or a pre-imbibed desire to continue an unnecessary tussle between science and so called religion.

btw. As regards the US military, instead of getting insulted, it would do more good to actually analyze the implications of a society where technological progress is determined and driven by military research.

Quick response from official sources "...transwarp coil was recovered, but it had self-destructed beyond repair by fusing its field regulator (per Borg protocol when a vessel is critically damaged)
From voyager  :D

Hmm, well...

[Note: The following is according to the various tech manuals I have. It's not canon, but it makes sense]

The first "transwarp" drive wasn't the same thing as the transwarp drive we see on Borg ships.
The transwarp used on the USS Excelsior was more a rethink of warp drive. As seen in The Motion Picture, an imbalance in the warp drive caused the warp field to alter into a tunnel shape (wormhole), which, though unstable and dangerous, was in fact faster than conventional warp design. The Federation then tried to develop a stable version of this, calling is "transwarp". It failed.

Also note that Transwarp in that context does not mean the same "Warp 10+". In TOS/TMP era, it's a linear scale. So while a specific amount of energy could get a conventional warp drive to Warp 3 (3^3 x Speed of Light), using a transwarp drive, that amount of energy would move the ship at Transwarp 3 (3^5 x Speed of Light). It's merely a more energy-efficient configuration of standard warp theory.

Next, onto the Borg stuff.

I think some of you are underestimating how difficult it is to reverse-engineer and re-invent technologies. Sure, it's possible to do that here on Earth, as the tech levels aren't THAT different (which is why the USA and USSR were able to start their space programs so easily using the technology they took from the Nazis in 1945; the first rockets were actual V2s). But the Borg are thousands of years more advanced, taking the variety and advancements of thousands of civilisations.

As some of you have already said, it is comparable to if you went back in time to the Medieval Ages, and gave them a PlayStation 3. Would they be able to look at it, then make one of their own? No.

Some of us are probably confused because they pussied up the Borg in Voyager - in the next gen they were pretty much invincible as they were supposed to be, a truly fearsome enemy. Remember when the Enterprise D (the federation flagship at the time and a vessel of awesome sized and power) fired a massive deflector weapon at a Borg cube, and nothing happened. The suggestion is that the Borg have indecipherable technology.

Well, in the first encounter between the Enterprise and the Borg, the Enterprise did 20% damage to the cube with one phaser blast, so the Borg have been anything but consistent with regards to strength.

True enough, consistency is not a strength of our dear Star Trek writers.

...which usually makes it pointless to argue canon, unless the developers created the series with such an idea in mind  :sweatdrop:

Pointless, yes, but enjoyable nonetheless :whistling:

Oh, undoubtedly  ^-^

I personally would attribute the Borg being damaged in the first confrontation to the fact that it was "pre-adaptation"... but that seems hardly sufficient to explain the intensity of the damage in spite of armor, decentralized systems, etc

Well, the phaser literally shot through the cube.  That's bound to cause some damage.  Of course, the problem becomes how that's even possible...

about the enterprise firing a energypulse from the deflector dish, and not doing damage to the borg. i thought that it didn't do damage because picard was assimilated, and that gave the cube the ability to counter the weapon :assimilate:

Good point ewm, I'd forgotten about that.

Whee, my debut post! I hope I don't make a total fool of myself. >_>

Yeah, Borg technology has always been a bit hard to define, to say the least. We go from having a cube requiring to travel for a few years at warp speed to reach the Federation to, later on, having this big portal network that seems to deposit them on Starfleet's front door between commercials, and a powerful transwarp conduit on every ship. (Which was probably hinted at in the TNG episode where the rogue Borg had the ship with the hyper-fast propulsion drive.) Even their interior decoration sense changed, going from this well-lit room with the Borg symbol scattered everywhere to an interior that would be somewhat appropriate in a high-tech Evil Dead film. (Am I the only one who wants to see the chainsaw/boomstick wielding hero mix it up with drones? ;.; ) Being creepy should be 'irrelevant,' after all.

And just because Voyager succeeded in 'plugging in' a coil to their ship for a bit of a speed boost doesn't mean they'd necessarily know HOW the coil works. I mean, they apparently couldn't even keep it from wearing out. Part of the reason they might not have been able to simply scan it in detail and program those details into a replicator might have been that the coil relied upon materials they couldn't recreate,  (consider that latinum can't be replicated,) or even components that operated in more than three dimensions.

And I agree that Voyager downplayed the Borg considerably; how can a race that went from half destroyed by a single phaser shot to all but invincible because of adaptation fail to adapt to one measly little Intrepid class starship?

Welcome soldier!!!  B)

Quite true. One thing that always got me was how the Borg only sent one ship to Earth to assimilate it. Why struggle against an entire federation fleet when you can send a few more cubes? Arturis in Voyager said that before he escaped, his home planet had been surrounded by "hundreds of cubes".

I personally think that if even the "weaker" Borg of voyager really existed, nobody would stand a chance, not even the Dominion.

Well, there are two possible reasons for this.

First of all, the Borg, as a race driven by logic and, to an extent, mathematics, might have calculated based on their encounter with the Enterprise that a singular cube was all that would be required to assimilate the population. In fact, this calculation was correct, for if it was not for a bit of luck and trickery, they WOULD have managed to assimilate Earth. This would be consistent with their line of thinking; in the end, Earth falling wouldn't singlehandedly destroy the Federation, although the loss of life and faculties would be a significant blow. But, as the Borg have a single, central weakness, they perceive their opponents to possess the same flaw. For this reason, they aim for what they feel in the 'core' of the opposition, perhaps thinking that it will break the back of all resistance.

Anyway, this would explain the first attack in TNG. The attack in First Contact was, again, carried out via a single cube, possibly because the Borg were still operating under the assumption that, without the strategy that had defeated them last time, the humans would fall.


The second reason could be explained by the very idea of 'Borg Space.' It would suggest that their primary force of expansion is outwards from a central point, rather than scattered across the galaxy. If they find a potentially intriguing bit of technology, they might send a cube to attempt assimilation, but it wouldn't be their utmost priority as the Borg are likely a patient race, and believe they will eventually reach the target anyway. It's not like the Federation is going anywhere, and because the Borg are so confident in their superiority, the idea that waiting might result in Starfleet exceeding them in technological ability is entirely absent from their thinking processes.

You make some good points, especially about the Borg's broader perspective on things, from a 'galaxy wide' view. I guess Worf was right, their biggest weakness is that they have neither honour nor courage.

As for me, I have the former but not the latter!! :D

 :sweatdrop: You know you're destined to be a psychology major when you start picking apart the Borg. >_>;;;

But even if we exceed the weaponry of the borg arsenal. The borg would assimilate it and add to there abilities, example in voyager there is a episode the a advised borg with medifasic shields.

Not necessarily; Borg technology seems to possess inherent flaws, such as a vulnerability to higher EM bands, and in the end there have been things they were unable to adapt to. Species 8472 used biologically based technology, forcing the Borg to confront something unlike anything they had ever seen before. As the Borg seem to lack the ability to create brand new strategies and technologies, ( even their adaptation being, really, a use of their accumulated knowledge to deal with different situations) then theoretically something that is both capable of resisting Borg nanoprobes and which has the advantage of being something the Borg had never dealt with before.

Another strategy that would be successful is attempting to disrupt the frequency through which the Borg communicate; even being able to isolate a single vessel from the collective would effectively cripple it. Then there's the pathogen used in Voyager in two separate episodes, including the series finale, which was a substance the Borg either did not have the time to adapt to, or simply didn't know how.

It's true that just building bigger phasers probably won't get the Federation very far, since they'd still be relying on a technology base that the Borg have learned to counter, but it doesn't mean that they won't find a way to defeat them; after all, humans have irrational leaps of intuition and brilliance driven by sheer desperation. =P

Ironically, I think the Borg's greatest weakness is their inability to evolve. They can adapt to slightly altered conditions, but they cannot come up with anything inherently new. At least that is what I have been led to believe: the only way they can "evolve" is by assimilation of new species/technologies.