Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations

Well peeps, we've has it for just about every other "major" ship out there now its the breens turn to be under scrutiny :D .
TBH, i think the battleship is quite a bit stronger than it should be, as it stands it is arguably inside the top 2 strongest ships in the PR pack. Im talking for raw power (offensive + defensive strength), i mean these are the same things that were literally being picked apart by allied fleets after the dampening weapon was useless.

So here is what i propose,
i) lower both shield & hull points to be more along the lines of a battle cruiser ( perhaps slightly more than a galaxy class (although even that is debatable))
ii) take away the phaser and replace it with another torpedo, to make a total of 2 torpedoes (3 if your feeling generous).
iii) here is the crucial part (although pointless if you havent done number 1), modify the special torpedo so it disables all systems except lifesupport, for a specified period, 5 seconds seems reasonable to me.

i bring this up, simply because i refuse to accept that the breen ships are that beefy. Without their tech they simply wouldn't be able to live with the others, as seen on the series.

Also may i take this time to say, "Bring on the Dreadnaught" :whistling:  

I knew one of you is gonna pick up on the one thing that actually gives the dominion any firepower. Now to anwser you:


Descent, Tavara and Phalanx are all stronger. Sovie and NeghVar are equal (it depends on the task at hand to decide which one is stronger)


Actually in the series only the breen cruiser makes an appearance ;) Breen Battlship is a FO made up ship so they dictate what specs it will have :P
Also that "allies beating the crap out of dominion" in the last season must be taken a bit reservly. The writers knew the show must end after season 7 so they had to end it quckly and the only way to do that is to make the dominion ships have the strenght of runabout, same applies for the breen ships.


i) So that would mean that the V13 is the best ship the Dominion can build, ****** great. That ship dies BEFORE it even destroys the shields on a NeghVar or Sovie and if it werent for its special weapon it would be quite useless to build.
So you want the breen battleships stats lowered to that of a galaxy which is a free ship. Give me a ****** break. Optec tells us b4 that Dominion basically dont really have a cruiser and now you want to screw up their battleships too? -.-

ii)Im up for that, especially since the torp on a breen battleship is damn strong ;) Phaser is secondary anyway....

iii) I dont mind that, though I do not see the point. If it can disable weapons and shields why cant it disable life support? :S
These special weapons will be reworked in v3 anyway, so we will see what happens. Id actually be more in favor to replacing its special weapon since the others have already developed counter-measures against it :)


Again, breen battleships werent in the series.....
I'll take this opportunity to mention the Breen battleships costs and build time which are as big, if not even bigger than other ships that can compare to it. Remember also that this is an avatar ship which costs a lot a takes a long time to build. Avalon comes to mind which is only slightly weaker than the breen battleship and it is FREE. Phalanx also comes to mind which is considrably stronger than the breen battleship...
See there are loads of other ships that "unbalanced" much more so than the breen battleship :P


Agree with u on this part :P



Note: I anwser this not only as a fan whose favorite race is the dominion, but also as a fan to whom balance between races is very important. ;)
I feel the way I feel simply because atm it seems that dominions most effective strategy is to mass up destroyers and hope for the best(also add a few battleships and "cruisers" here and there of course :P) That may be canon, but please also mind the BALANCE between the races. And right now the Breen give that to the dominion :)

well ryan has a point the breen minus the dampening weapon are crap

but u cant change it as at the moment it would make the Dom crap

@baron, lol iand i knew you were going to be the first to reply to this, (well either you or Rhaz anyway :P )
lol, admittedly i did forget about the phalanx (i meant the tavara and B Battleship were top 2), but both the phalanx & tavara cost credits so....
No way can the sovie on FO beat the breen battleship, unless it was near a black hole the breens shields and hull is just too much for the sovie to handle as it stands. The negh'var is not a match simply because its weapon range is too short, an undeniable fact i believe.

Actually the model used for the battleship IS in fact the cruiser (http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GBreenShip2.jpg), or rather the Breen frigate as it is more correctly referred to :P

are you kidding the V13 is perhaps my fav Dom ship, and i find it plenty usefull with its 218 hull points and 404 shield points. Plus Optec has also said that the Dreadnaught was planned for the Dominion right, so that should quench your thirst for raw power.

lol, follow the link up there :lol:

yes but, 1 it costs credits and 2 compared to its offensive strength, its defence sucks.

they have all been disected, now its the breens turn :P

@4 o 11, yeah i know these are just suggestions for the  future :)

Yeah i agree i do want the breen Nerfed but when the dread is out

The Breen ship in the show was a frigate, true.
It was fairly week, superior to a miranda class, and perhaps the sabre class.
About on par in my oppinion with the canon Steam Runner, and a slightly better vessel than that of the Bug, but mostly due to the skills of Breen Pilots, and not hardware.

The Breen did not on screen commit any battleships to the front.

It is my oppinion that their battleships would at least have some large array of conventional weapons, because they would need alot more than those wimpy frigates to stop Federation, Romulan and Klingon ships that frequently attempt to penetrate their star cluster.

Link to Breen information. (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/6151/breen/)

In the movie Generations, Breen Disuruptors are classed as type 3 the same type utilized by Klingon Vorcha class ships and Romulan Cruisers of the TNG era, which would lead me to believe that due to the unsopohisticated nature of the Breen Confederacy's smaller vessels, that they have some larger platform capable of mounting these conventional weapons, naturally a Battleship.

Yeah i agree with you on that but the breen arent that strong otherwise they would have been a much more powerfull race in the alpha quadrant :)

They have a small number of ships, that is their lacking of strength, they have maybe a hundred ships.

Hmm that would make it alot more understandable but i still want the BB nerfed :P

i dunno, i think they have far more than they lead anyone to believe, such is their secretive nature.

Plus the bit about the disruptor... the type 3 is of the hand held pistol style variety ;)  (i think thats confirmed in the episode with spock, picard & Data captured by sela when they try to escape (but i know i heard it from somewhere if not there.))
the Vorcha uses the type 10 & 12 varieties, according to DITL.

@ 4 of 11, why dont you want the dread? :huh:  it is a must have for the dominion forces.

I meant when the dread is released sorry if u didnt get what i meant

The Breen units buildable under the Breen Avatar are results of a founder sent to the breen homeworld to assist them in building up a fleet capable of controlling the alpha quadrant after it has been conquered - notice that at this point they did not even think of the possibility of defeat. while it turns out that the dominion might lose the war the breen fall back to their favourit hobby - isolation. the romulans would be proud of.
in the mean time the yards orbiting breen planets started building up breen starships suited for war - still not officially informed that the war is actually over.
cause of this quite special situation the dominion-breen avatar units might not exactly "feel" like you think they should from the series. that and much more will be explained in the Fleet Operations story, if we ever find a start to tell it

the breen battleship model, btw, is still a placeholder and will be replaced by a new design. the breen frigate as you know it from the shows will come in as a sperate npr unit.
I will have a look at the balancing again but from my current point of view the breen avatar looks okay ^_^ still open for a discussion about it, of course

Well at least someone is on my side :D It helps he is one of the most important persons in FO development too :P



When we put a sovie vs breen in the balancing thread breen won this fight but it had like 4 hull remaining and u also have to take it into consideration that its special weapons disabled sovies weapons 2 times, so thats 10sec without fireing a single shot...
NeghVar vs Breen Battleship was where NeghVar won ;) So be quiet :P
As I said they are roughly equal in strenght, some of them get the edge in different tasks. For instance:
I believe the Sovie would be better vs cruisers or destroyers because of its stronger phaser.
NeghVar is just the ultimate battleship killer with its very strong torps and special weapon :)
Breen battleship is similar to NeghVar, but with long range. So I believe its best used vs stations or **** like that.


Yeah they cost credits, so does the descent btw. But do u honestly believe the breen battleship can really stand up to any of those vessles? Please..... They are just out of its class. Im not saying it shouldnt be like that, your just overrating the bb.
Its closest match would be the phalanx, though it would still win comftrably.



Yeah my bad on that one, listen to Optec tho..... :P


Look anwser above :)



The supply requirements for this vessle are tremendous and its quite frankly not worth it.
BTW, shield and hull points of other battleships:
Defiant: 459 shields 153 hull
Sovie: 575 shields 192 hull
NeghVar: 454 shields 194 hull
Cahlaer: 339 shields 145 hull
D'Deridex: 422 shields 181 hull
Eresis: 307 shields 132 hull
Norexan: 423 shields 181 hull

So basically it has better shields than Cahlaer and Eresis, which was to be expected due to their cost n ****. Is about at the level of D'deridex and Norexan(with Rommies  having a lot faster shield recharge rate) Defiant, NeghVar and Sovie are way out of its class.
What I conclude from this is that the ship is barely on par with the 2 main Rommie battleships(1 of which u claimed in the Defiant thread is a waste of space). Also keep on mind that Rommies have the tavara to provide them with firepower when they need it and they get very good avatar bonuses with Mijural. Mind also that Rommies have very good cruisers with their generix ships.
Now where does that leave the Dominion? Simply the suckiest battleship of all the races, weakest cruisers but with the ability to mass out destroyers. Huray for the founders!  -_-
But of course all of you are concerned about the above average strenght of the breen battleship. I mean ****, if they suck at everything already, take that away from them too ;) Let us all beat them into submission everytime we play against them!


1 credit, which means u can freely build 20 of them - really a limiting factor isnt it ;) Let me tell you something, if you have enough resources and time to build 20 phalanxes, so u max out your credits, nothing will be able to stop you. And I dont care how many breen battleships your opponent builds....


See my replies to Ryan.



 

well im too tired to answer everything atm so i'll just answer this one for now:
when you compare that for an almost unlimited number of breen battleships (a more than likely prospect).... :P
plus if that is the case then the phalanx is hardly its closest match.
i'll respond to the rest a bit later.

well, you'r preety much right on everything, the dominion don't have good battleships, but they have the capability to mass destroyers and use them as torpedo bait during combat. They also should become stronger with the introduction of a new battleship, but they will still lack middle class ships, but i think that won't be a problem.

D'Deridex: 422 shields 181 hull

Norexan: 423 shields 181 hull


is that the D'deridex with the Avatar cause if it is, all it does is prove my point that the noroxan is a waste of space

No that is the normal d'deridex.
Norexan is still better, shields wise, than V13, what does that make V13 then?
(with that waste of space thing I was actually talking about Ryans comment in the defiant thread, where he said that the dominion war proved that D'deridexes were basically a waste of space....)



LoL u havent been playin MP much have you? If you get together 16 breen battleships in MP you can be a VERY happy camper. Now you talk about this unlimited crap lol. You are NEVER going to get more than 20 breen battleships at 1 time, except if both of you are bunkering. 20 is more than enough Phalanxes to own, trust me :S
And phalanx would beat the breen battleship... dont doubt that.

Another prblem is: You will never come to the point building breen battleships. if you do so..you opponet will overrun you with masses of smaller ships. you would have constructed 3 battleships ...raped.. dead...DELETED!  

Not always the case depends on teh map

for example on eraudi u can easily spam bugs and still make the Breen Battleships  

the construction times of destroyers and cruisers have been adjusted to make the higher levels of the tech tree - so basically battlecruisers, 2nd support vessels and battleships - more attractive to be included into personal armies :)

well its your opponents fault if he allows this. Also note that the breen have a VERY long con time and to build 16 of them and also produce bugs would take a long, long time.
As Ive been saying the whole time, and as Jan has now said it too, you simply wont get to build that many in order to make a difference in a game.

 

well i that case there is very little point in them being there, so all of this rebalancing that some people would want would be of little consequence to you :wacko:  

haha lol

Yeah than I shouldnt even have the opportunity to be able to build them, of course. Only give the Dominion bugs and let them survive of them- hopefully that would make you happy.
Let me tell you something, if we are speaking about canonness then fine the breen ships shouldnt be that strong BUT FO is using a MADE UP ship class, which is currently using the frigates model (as Optec explained b4). So who r u to say that the Breen battleship wouldnt be so strong?
Also considering what the current situation on the Dominion is, they are great at massing destroyers, have ****** cruisers and below-average battleship (not avatar units). So if u **** up the 1 thing they have going for them in battleships, u eliminate any other options for them to fight on equal terms than the destroyer spam. Dont u think thats a little 1-dimensional?
A lot of people dont like the Dominion now cause they are kind of hard to play with, since they have 3 main resources compared to other races 2. Take this away too and then its just better to make them a NPR.

Not a lot of people would like this rebalancing there is only u and 4of11 I can remember right now, with everyone else who think racionally know that BB's arent unbalanced. Let me just think of the rebalancing u want to do in FO:
-make the Breen Battleship crap
-make Akira a god ship
-make Galaxy stronger (with pdp back)

Im sure in a couple of weeks u're gonna open a thread to making the sovie stronger  -_-  -_-
Does anyone else smell favorism here? You only want your precious Federation to be god-like with no regards to balancing or other races.

Now I like u, I always thought of you as a rational person on this forums but these last your comments are really starting to p|ss me off cause u're simply ignoring what everyone is telling you. I never said that Breen Battleships make NO difference in a game, I just said that they are not the difference makers like Defiants for instance or even your precious Akiras (who more and more people are swarming). The BB's are a good edition to a fleet, but they are far to expensive to be massable, same goes for sovies and NeghVars.

Now please try to reply to all of my points and not just in a sentance like u did b4. ex. if you dont use them, they wont effect u  -_-  As that is not what Im saying.

too many people come on here complaining about balancing when its down to player skill differences... one of the facts of human nature is that its too easy to blame overpowered ships rather than accepting that you got beat because you wernt the best player.

imo, get over it, if you lose then you lose because you didnt play well enough, if you start believing otherwise you'll never be satisfied with anything.

 

lol, oh man now here comes the irational attack now your back is to the wall -_- ,
when have i said anything about making the akira a god ship? i simply said make its special weapon offensive to fit in with the akiras design philosophy. the galaxy stronger? yes but it was not me who said anything about the pdp.
:lol:  actually the klingons (martok avatar) is my favourite :P

you keep talking about the longest construction time, as if that is not going to be lowered in acordance with strength :huh: i thought it was common knowledge that you should lower a units build time if its made weaker :sweatdrop:

the defiants have been disected for balancing as have the akira's multiple times (and still ongoing i believe) as are a lot of things these past couple of days, now it is something to do with the dominion you dont like it, perhaps the favouritism is on your part.

if you notice i quoted your entire post, what more do you need if i can just reply to it with what i said :huh: .
if your referring to earlier when i said i was too tired to answer everthing just then thats really the reason, i work shifts (pay is good but the hours are crap), having to work some nights or some days, inevitably you will have to do 2 shifts back to back. what can i say i was knackered  :wheelchair: my bad  :sweatdrop:

@skitz, doesnt always work like that, otherwise why do most complain about the massing of certain classes?

Hold on a second when have i been biast for the federation thats just a plain lie

I want the Vorcha increased a bit to justify its cost and i also want the negvar given cloak cause that really ****** me off alot

and i said i wanted the S2 increased to fit the cruiser role so dont tell me im being biased for the feds thats just a simple lie

but as it stands u cant complain that the ship takes too long to build if its ridiculously Uber

and to prove i dont love the feds i was the one complaining about the defiant

I was talking about Ryan being biased.... And you were in favor of nerfing the BB's
Sorry if I didnt put it right.




Ryan: Look basically your whole argument about the BB has been that its not canon. Optec explained the situation to you, so that should be the the end of it.
I have added to that points which actually prove the dominion could really use another battleship(now they have only 2, avatars included!. When compared to feds - 5, klingons- 1(or 3 depends where u put vupta and luspet and they have VERY powerful cruisers) and roms - 5)
And that the BB is not unbalanced, others have confirmed this as well. The long buildtime is just another argument that u cant really mass them, same goes for high resource cost (24 supplies! much more for prototype). Massing BB's is basically the same as massing Sovies and u know damn well that wont work ;) They simply cost too much and take too long to build. Or as Jan graphically described u build 4 and then a swarm of destroyers came and your eliminated ;)

I know what u mean by wanting to make the BB weaker, simply because its canon. But since this ship was not in the shows u cannot say if its canon or not. Also you cannot have everything canon lol, simply because the feds would be unbeatable then cause every show/movie was made from their standpoint ;) and they did not loose in any of them. Also if you really want canon I would argue that I want a canon 4,5km long dreadnought in my fleet in v3 and u know as well as me that that simply wont happen lol -same applies to the cube ;)

It seems we are just looking from a different point of view, with you more focused on the canonness and me on the actual balancing in the game. For me balancing is more important because this is a MP mod first and foremost. So it seems we are never going to agree on it lol, u do have to admit tho that FO is about MP playability and all races should be equal there lol
Now Ive explained my point here over and over again and if any of you still dont get it, then Im sorry but Im not going to explain myself again lol.

BTW: Im sorry I said u're favoriting the feds, but I was just really p|ssed at that moment and couldnt control myself really ;)
I dont see how my back is against the wall tho, as all of my points are yet to be disproven. ;)


 

well actually if it was cannon 5 bops can take out anything lol

look to be honest with the Breen Battleship if they get another mid level ship then it should be nerfed until then its fine as it is  

baron i know things must stay as they are for the moment, (subtle hint at the end of my first post in thread ;) ) im simply saying that i want this "battleship" downgraded when there is something to replace it (dread). I know optec has explained that it is their design (so be it) BUT my arguement is they are using the frigate model from the series for the battleship and something else for the frigate :huh: . Plus put yourself in the Breen position, why would you contribute Battleships more than capable of whipping anything the dominion have to throw against you, for an alliance your not even equal partners in? :blink: I cant be the only one here who finds that hard to swallow.

And how was i being biased? and to what? I also have argued in favour of  rebalancing the defiant and other aspects of the feds. I dont even like playing as the feds anymore because of that. As said my favourite is the martok avatar (love the sus'a :D ).

Well thats easy to anwser lol. Breen have like 100 ships and the Dominion have like 10000;) at the time they just thought they were backin the winning side ;) Plus the dominion offered them Earth if they won (I think they offered that to everyone  :lol: )


Note: When the Dominion get the dreadnought I will more than happy settle for a breen heavy cruiser instead of the battleship :P. The only problem is, that that might actually unbalance the Dominion  :blink:  Since it would give them great ships for every possible positito ;)

The Dominion Dreadnought would probabally be disabled for the Breen avatar, as well.

i'd rather have the hyperspace arty ship disabled, seeing as how the dread is current tech, and the arty one would be top of the line "pure dominion tech"

Khmmm u might have a point there :) though I like both the defender and the hyperspace sensor too :(

indeed, why get rid of one?

i suppose get rid of 1 because you are effectively adding one to replace it, i think.

Well u have to get rid of one if u were to add the hyperspace arty to them, because all avatars give 2 special units ;)
Unless u make the Defender or hyperspace sensors buildable for all avatars :)

well, the breen get :
arty, breen cruies and BB
puretech gets:
Sensor thingy, Defender plus one more thing?

Arty thingy isnt avatar bonus, its buildable for both avatars :)

What Ryan is suggesting is to make the Dread buildable for both avatars and arty a special for puretech, but taht would mean u would have to take away one of their units :)

yep thats right baron, but just cant seem to decide what the breen avatar should have instead of the arty ship :blink:  

Well the logical solution is to make both arty and the dread buildable for both avatars :P

suppose so, for the breen avatar give it a slightly steeper cost (either resource OR credit cost)

It already does cost 12 credits for the breen avatar and only 10 for puretech ;)

yeah but... :omg:  oh man im confusing myself here :wacko: lol.

breen avatar:
edit: forgot the reduced system research costs
shorter reload for torpedoes
engine upgrades
breen cruiser
breen battleship (possible downgrade to heavy cruiser)
dread (proposed)
arty 12 credits


Pure tech:
Defender
hyperspace sensor station
dread (proposed)
arty 10 credits
?is that it, i have to have missed something :huh:

this seems to lean heavily towards the breen avatar.

um you forgot that build times are faster for the Puretech

ah, yeah, still though there are more & better advantages for just using the breen avatar :unsure:  

puretech:
-units:
:Hyperspace sensor
:Defender

-bonuses:
:15% decreased build time for vessles at the 1st yard
:Hyperspace arty costs 10 credits
:B5 range increased to medium (a really good bonus imo ;))


breen:
-units:
:Breen Cruiser
:Breen Battleship

-bonuses:
:10% decrease in cost for all system upgrades
:Adds engine upgrade to system upgrades
:5% decrease of tetrion torp reload time :)


So u see each avatar gives 2 units and 3 bonuses :)

its more than likely because I almost never play online, but the hyperspace sensor seems rather useless because on a large map it is almost religated to nothingness. Plus the hyperspace artillary although dealing high amounts of damage the credits seem a waste in the long run as the ship takes to long to really lock on and wipe out fleets, and when it is spotted its not really a threat anymore

well the station actually does help for the deep space scan that is very important on Mp as u can find out what ur enemy is doing without losing ships

and with the extra range the tachyon scan is helpfull

Plus that extra large tac pulse it emmits, its huge lol. I never used it yet tho, the research costs to much and we usually play on large maps so on them its very ****** :S

i think that pulse's main use is to flush out any cloaked ships that may be hiding inside your base.

The Avatar Boni have slightly changed by v3 buffing pure-tech a little:

Pure-Tech:

• Reduced construction time for all Construction Yard vessels by 15 percent
• Reduced Credit costs for the Hyperspace Artillery by two
• Increased all attributes of the B-5 Battle Cruiser and the V-13 Battleship by 1 and increased the weapon range of the B-5 Battle Cruiser to medium range

Breen Alliance:

• Increased Offensive Value for all vessels with Tetrion Torpedos by 1
• Reduced research costs for all system upgrades by 10 percent
• Allows to upgrade movement speed at the Ketracel White Facility

I think I like that one :D

yeah, but you seldomly build the b-5

ach the best present for baron, would if optec set the construction time for bugs to 3 seconds and the con time for the t15 to 5 sec :D

yeah but there are increased attributes for the V-13 as well, a kick@ss battlecruiser in my view.

im not seeing any dread on those 2 lists there, guess there will be a longer wait for that :( , unless you didnt mention it cos they both have it as standard :shifty:  

That might be, but I think Im gonna need to use it much more :)




Yah the V13 might be more necessary to built now :D ;) I think the dread will be standart for both :P

good, that leaves them free to downgrade the breen "battleship" to heavy cruiser instead :D . but before i start celebrating I think i'll wait till its confirmed proper *hint, hint*

Every Dominion player has the possibility to access a dreadnought, thats true.  ^_^  

*busts a move in celebration* :woot: *trips and lands in a heap on the floor*. That is most excellent news  :)  

Well no news about the breen battleships yet lol. I like'em as they are and I think they should stay this way. Tho I wont complain if they do become heavy cruisers :P

The Breen Battleships will stay Breen Battleships :) There are no plans to change them at the moment.

*begins to cry* :cry:  

ditto  

Im quite happy actually :P

*stamps on Baron's foot, now Baron is crying* :shifty:  There see optec, now everyone is sad about the change... or should that be lack of :sweatdrop: