Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations

Due to heated discussions in the Defiant thread cts got the idea to test ship to ship combat in FO. Because he wasnt available it was me and hypercube who did the testing. Basically we first tested how ships cope in 1vs1 fight and then 16vs16 fight. Both of us had 2 weapons and 2 shield upgrades done and also special weapons researched.
This time we only tested 2 races, but I think we will continue these tests untill we get all the info about different ship classes.
So first of there was a fight of the Federation Admiral Mayson against the Romulan general Mijural :)

these are the results:

Levheal vs Akira:

- 1vs1 Akira wins
- 16vs16 Akiras win

This was a suprisingly tough test for the akiras as levheal may be far behing the akira in sheer strenght but it partly makes up for it with its special weapons.
Note: Mayson gives defence bonus to the Akira

Generix Frigate vs Akira:

- 1vs1 Akira wins
- 16vs16 Akiras win

An easier job for the Akiras than vs Levheals, though it was to be expected as Generix Frigates are made to fight small ships with pulses

Generix Dreadnought vs Akira:

-1vs1 Akira wins
-16vs16 Akiras win

An even easier job for Akiras than vs Generix Frigates, which I must say is suprising as I would thought the Dreadnought should do a lot better vs them.
------>Conclusion: I think the Dreadnought should get a little power boost ;)

Cahleal vs Excelsiors:

-1vs1 Cahleal wins
-16vs16 Cahleals win

This was purely because of the Cahleals' special weapon, without it I think Excelsiors would win, by a small margine tho :)

Generix Frigate vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Defiants win

Due to massive difference in ship cost this is the way it should be. We only tested this because of the Generix Frigates suppressive shielding and to see how it will cope with Defiants pulse phasers. Eventhough Defiants won comfortably I think this is the best way to cheaply fight them back :)

D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

A suprising result. Eventhough Defiants pulses do only 60% of their full damage to large ships the Defiant won 1on1 with the D'deridex. This is purely because of the special weapon, as the D'deridex wasnt able to fire for full 21s and that is a BIG BIG advantage for the Defiant. 16vs16 Hypercube was not able to control the special weapon manualy and so they all fired all of their special weapons at a couple of D'deridexes thus wasting their advantage.
Note: Mijural gives defence bonus to the D'deridex.
------>Conclusion: Defiants special weapon really is too strong, it needs to be lowered. But as Optec already said that is already done :)

Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

A similar result to the one with the D'deridex test, it is again obvious that the special weapon really is too strong. However I was expecting the Norexan to cope better against defiants due to its Pulse weapons, it is strange to me.

D'deridex vs Sovereign:

1vs1 Sovereign wins
16vs16 Sovereigns win

Well it was kind of obvious that the Sovereign will win this, it was suprising however that 1vs1 it barely won. 16vs16 was a different matter and the Sovereigns won comfortalby.

Norexan vs Sovereign:

1vs1 Sovereign wins
16vs16 Sovereigns win

Again it was obvious who would win and Sovereigns had an easier time against Norexans than versus D'deridexes and that is the way it is supposed to be :)

Descent vs Tavara:

1vs1 Tavara wins

Well it was to be expected, however the Descent stoop up to Tavara pretty well and the Tavara had like 50% hull left when the Descent was finally destroyed. I think this is again due to the special weapon which will be lowered :)

Tavaras vs Defiants:

4vs16 Defiants win

We tested this just for fun since it was pretty obvious who would win. The tavars put up quite a fight thought and destroyed 5 Defiants in total before they were destroyed. They also captured 3 Defiants which were destroyed also. So in total they  got rid of 8 Defiants.


-----> The Grand Conclusion:
Nothing too striking about these results except the awesomeness of the critical shot special weapon, which was already agreed to be lowered :)
Also it is a little strange that Generix Frigates are stronger than the Generix Dreadnoughts, it really should be the other way around. I think Generix Dreadnoughts need to pack a bigger punch ;)
As for the grand question about the Defiant. I think that with its special weapon fixed it will be balanced and defeatable, not easily but nevertheless defeatable. If you are playing as Romulan versus Federation and you have to deal with the Defiants I suggest you build either Generix Frigates and you can easily outbuild them about 2:1 and I think at that ratio the Generixes should win. Or you go for D'deridex or Norexans, whichever you prefer. I like the first option better because it is cheaper and easier to do :)

My Defiant verdict: I am satisfied with the special weapon fix, however I generally do not agree with the Defiant being so strong for the reasons I have already mentioned,  but just to make them clear: The Defiant is not a battleship and should not be able to fight like one, the ship is roughly the size of a Bird of Prey or Bug ship and it is disrespectful to think that the Federation has such superior technology to the Klingons or the Dominion to make such a ship. That said, I will settle for the special weapon fix and a balanced game, even if I do not agree with all of their judgements :)



This was just the first of many such tests which we will do in the following days, when we will have enough free time on our hands :) Expect the results here as soon as we finish :) If you want you can of course join when we test it, so we can do more tests at once which would make things easier :)
Also if you want any particular thing to be tested please just say so in this thread :)
Thats it from me now, next on the testing line are: Dominion allied with Breen forces vs Federations' Admiral Mayson.

this is because the defiant isn't labeled as a small ship, it a medium ship in the odf, thus pulse weapons do normal damage to the defiant.

see i was right the defiant is ridiculously overpowered :)

test what Red said 16 remores ;)

hahahahaha

I would love to see the results of Defiants Vs the V15 i think it is

and id also love to see the results of Defiants vs Vupta class see if the critical shots miss that would be a nice way to see if the defiant is overpowered or not

also a good test would be the Defiant vs Negvars

and as for the Odf label it needs to be changed as that thing is tiny

yah, a medium ship is something more like an akira IMO.

actually the tests clearly showed that the factor in defiants wins is purelly by it's special weapon, they couldn't cope with alot of battleships, purelly becuse i wasn't able to control the special weapon efficiently enough. In the 1vs1 tests the defiants won, and it was a close call, comming down to hull, so if i hadn't used the special weapon, 3 times, at the critical moments, manually, it would not stand a chance against neither the norexian or the d'diredex.

as baron already stated, the dediredex and the norexian had their weapons offline for 21 seconds during the fight, that meaning that the defiant was fiiring 21 seconds longer, and it wa still a close call with the norexian, which has the pulse weapon that was quite effective againt defiants.

Answering to your request, next we will test the V15 and the dominion, untill finally moving on to the klingons, i'm really looking forward to seeing the monsoons battle the k'vorts.

This thing is bothering me, in the info page it says that pulse weapons do 80% dam to medium ships. Yet Optec and now you said that it takes full damage of the pulse weapons, somethings got to give. If u2 are right, please change the info page with correct information -.-


Its the T15 and yes we will test it :)



I dont think the critical shot can miss :-S



That will be one of the tests of course :D


All of you should also remember that the feds had a slight advantage in this test due to their high defence values and more particulary shield strenght. Because when we upgraded both shields, feds got more actual shield points from it that the Roms did. Simply because 10% from 300 is more than 10% from 200 (an example)


 

tbh, i dont see why it shouldn't if other torpedo specials can miss.
lol, so dam annoying to shoot the negh'vars special, only to see it fly off in some other direction and be left without torpedoes like a fool :blink:  :cry: .


well here it is from the horses mouth, in direct relation to the defiant's pulse weapons:

damageBase = 7.2
"dom_bomber.odf" 12
"dom_heavy_cruiser.odf" 9.6

"rom_generix_frigate.odf" 6

(obviously there is more to it than this but these are the 3 different values in there in relation to size Plus the value for the generix resistance to pulse weapons.)

the base damage is the damage it does to large targets, 9.6 is the damage for medium targets and 12 is the damage for small targets.

So obviously u2 were lying :D

:lol: what me lying  :shifty: , never just assumed it was "normal" damge for medium ships  :sweatdrop:  :P  

anyway one thing annoys me about the defiant why does it have 90 crew it shouldnt

shouldnt it be only like 50 or 49 ???

yep should be about 50, look at how many times the ship was captured, although i suppose many of them were so the writers didn't have to destroy it. Still think it was captured less times than Voyager though and its 150 crew, lol :D  

I tested that this afternoon at a friend's house.

16v16: We did it 3 times; the Defiants one because I tried the lvl 2 special ability instead of the ecm.  My Remores won hanidily the other 2 times.

1v1: Defiant won one out of three because the critical shot hit.

Yah, we're gonna test that too ;) Simply because I do not believe u :P  
The only way remores could possibly win against defiants is with the use of precise volley. Now I dont remember exactly how much spec energy it takes to fire it nor for how does it disable a system. But defiant can nullfy that **** with the critical shot for 21s and I doubt Remore can survive for that long ;)

thats funny as i tested the defiants against the remoores, yesterday. (couldn't post cause my internet connection keeps misbehaving)

are you ready for it... the defiants won every time in both 1 v 1 and 16 v 16 battles. 3 defiants destroyed in the first 16 battle, and 4 in the second one ( bear in mind for the second 1 i was using most specials independantly.
In the 1 v 1 battle the defiant had about 20 to 40% hull depending on which weapons of the remoore were used.

well, that seems preety fair to me, the remoore is just a support ship, it shouldn't win against a battleship with or without the special weapons.

the only problem is, Defiant is not a battleship ;)
Plus it is ok that way, Ryan was just replying to redshirt who was talking out of his arse

I think he secretly wants the Defiant to retain it's power.  :ph34r:

By the way, I look like a ninja when I pull my tank top over my head.

Other than that, it's sad that the only things that can fight it are really expensive support ships.

How many defence upgrades?

obviously, all research and upgrades available to both of them.

We had sheilds but no weopons.

Something else:

Is it possible to make the Dominion Prototypes imune against the romulan sabotage ? I just played the Romulans against Dominion and with two shots of the sabotage, even the biggest battleship-Prototype exploded.

Can you do something about that ? Or maybe make the Prototype a little bit more effective....don't know.

I agree with prototypes being a bit stronger, but that the Rommies were able to sabo you is entirely your fault. You should look for a cloaked scout in your base ;) or at least move them to a position that has tac detection around it so they cant see you :)  

Assuming that you were dominion in that match, of course.  If it was AI dominion, they do tend to do stupid things.

The Dominion is too effective without that one weakness, if you break through their thick lines and take out their battleship prototype you can stall production, and I love that idea, don't change it.

Plus Romulans...they love to sabotage prototypes and steal technology, so it's a very fitting end.  

Only to make it clear, I was playing the romulans ^^

If the prototypes become a little stronger than I think its ok.

Mabye just a greater resistance to the sabo would do the trick.

nope, surely prototypes should be MORE sensitive to power overloads and the like.

hmmm that just makes the problem worse, hence a BALANCE ISSUE.

i wud really like 2 see non cloaking races (feds, dominion*) equipped with some way of detecting cloaked ships at the start (tachyon on stations), even if it is with stations or something of the like, just need SOMETHING to stop rommies and klingons having complete LOS on you as you build, from that point on your chances are slim. half of this game for me is the risk associated with going to an enemy point, hoping that u have more ships than the opponent, judging when u can afford to attack.

a change that would make cloaked fleets more used against other fleets would be ace, atm its too much cloak vs base.



*yes i know the dominion can get the breen cruiser, but it doesnt make them a cloaking race

This will be the day...

I agree 100% with Ryan.

These ships have electronics equipment over weapons, they are testbeds and should be EXTREMELY vulerable to sabo and such.

You have a point.

More than once a Romulan/Klingon opponent has gotten the best of me by knowing what I'm sending and building counters.

Sabo is done by placing an agent into the enemy vessle. I would imagine that if prototypes are so important they would have better security on them too ;)
BTW: How can a Rommie agent even come to a Dominion ship without being detected is beyond me :S
Same on Borg ships.

Emmm counter cloaking is ok as it is now IMO. The sensor satelites are very cheap and that tac detection isnt too expensive either....

yeah dont u dare change the counter cloak cause otherwise it will be like stock A2 and i hated that there simply was no point to cloaking

 

Heck, there wasn't much of a point to doing anything in stock A2.  Anything other than massing B-ships, that is.

building detection stations stumps the building of starships, ESPECIALLY for the feds, its slightly easier for the dominion to cope, but very hard for the feds imo.

we have done further testing with dominion, federation and klingon and the resoults are, that in general the federation was the weakest and the klingons the strongest:

Bug VS B'rel- 1vs1 the b'rel wins but 16vs16 the bug lifts the flag (without using ramming special ability)
Bug VS Saber- Bug wins both times (without using ramming special ability)

B'rel VS Saber-B'rel wins both times (sabers lost every time, being the least affective ship)
Akira VS Vorcha- Vorcha wins both times (special weapon contributes alot)

Breen cruiser VS Intrepid- Suprisingly Intrepid wins 1vs1 but looses 16vs16 (special weapon is less effective againt a larger force)
Sovereign VS Neghvar- Neghvar wins both time (martok avatar gives the neghvar bonus, which was indicated in the 1vs1 battle when sovereign lost by a slight margen.
Sovereign VS V13- Sovereign wins both times dispite the V13 special weapon.

Severeign VS Breen battleship- 1vs1 Breen winns by 15 hull, taking into account that the sovereigns weapons were offline twice they are quite evenly matched, 16vs16 breen wins
Neghvar VS V13- Negvar wins comfortably both times ( martok avatar gives the Neghvar bonus)
Neghvar VS Breen battleship- 1vs1 Neghvar wins, 16vs16 Breen wins with 2 remaining ships(it was quite a close call, negvar special is less effective)
B5 VS Excelsior 1vs1 the B5 won, using it's special weapon it won comfortably, but 16vs16 the excelsiors won by a mile with 8 ships left.
Defiant VS T-15- Both times the defiant wins, but in 1vs1 it was clear it had an advantage with the special weapon.
V-17 VS Akira- Akiras win both times, but not by much.

Monsoon VS K'vort- Kvorts win comfortably both times, clearly indicating their huge supremacy.
Intrepid VS S2- S2 wins both times (nothing special)

Vorcha VS B5- Vorchas win comfortably both times.

C-17 VS Sus'a 1vs1 goes to S17, while 16vs16 goes to Sus'a

And finally we went crazy and at the same time sent 16scouts of each race into battle, venturas died first, the dominion stood 2 more weaves and were destroyed by my defiants :P  


I believe that this test suggests if not prooves the extreme superiority of klingons and dominion over the federation, but since the test was done with unlimited resources it is very possible that the federation makes up for it's lack of firepower with building speed, cost and Defiants ;)

till next time, cheers from hypercube, baron and this time joining us, frodo.

If you wanna make it that way than they should at least be faster or a little better armored...better sensors ?
Not sure about it. Of course the modders choose what they change and what stays how it is.

Edit: This ist to the "Prototype-question"

@Hypercube:

In all of the "Little" ships which you can build very early, I think the Shrike and the Bop (with Avatar bonus) are the best. They just have the greatest fire power and cloaking abillity.

And I played some times where the saber is superior to the others, because of its very long weapon range, so dont underastimate them. ;)

Yeah well range and maneurability didnt play a role in these tests and that is where certain ships have advantage over others (sabres for instance). That is why in real combat results might differ a little bit ;)

In a lot of tests luck was a very important factor, for instance NeghVar vs Breen Battleship 1vs1 NeghVar knocked Breens weapon systems down right after its shields got down. There were a couple such instances.

During the test I noticed that the b5 will not use its special weapon even when on high weapon and high movement autonomy, so that sould really be fixed -.-

Apparently hypercube didnt remember all the battle results, as we also did a T15 vs that Blue beam klingon ship. T15 won 1vs1 with still some shields remaining and 16vs16 with  only 3 T15s destroyed(some others were damaged).
Now this shows how great it is to mass blue beam ships (according to redshirt ;))

From the results its also visible that the V13 is the worst battleship by a big big margin. Its special weapon is awesome tho and I dont mind it being that weak providing the dominion get the dreadnought in V3 ;) As right now the Dominion are lacking a bit of firepower when compared to other races (not counting in the Breen ships).

Also I do not see how this test shows the superiority of Dominion and Klingons vs the Federation as u have to remember that the battle between Sovie, NeghVar and Breen battleship was always very close. And as Martok was the Klingon avatar it gives the NeghVar defence bonus (+3) and Breen battleship is also an avatar special ship, which means it cant always be built. Sovie did not recieve any bonuses ;)
Sabre as I mentioned has long range and u can usually keep other ships, like bops, from comming into range. Akira should loose vs Vorcha due to Vorchas special weapon and the sheer cost of Vorcha.
Monsoon lost vs Kvort because its a small ship and the Kvort has pulses ;)
Intrepid is also a small ship and Breen cruiser has pulses, so it should win. Plus it costs more
Excelsiors owned B5s, and B5 only won 1vs1 cause of its special weapon (which does not fire on its own -.-)
Defiants owned T15s: This is ok due to Defiants cost
And Akiras owned C17.
See I do not see how Federation is inferior to either Klingons or the Dominion, all you have to do is choose your ships visely ;) I would also like to mention that Federation ships are more all-round ships with phasers being their primary weapons, so they are equally good vs everything. While Dominion and Klingon have more "special" ships with pulses or torpedos as primary weapons, meaning that you can outsmart the Klingons or the Dominion far easily than the Federation. Just a thought :P

i know all this, but the fact is, that the federation won completelly, 4 times out of 18 battles and when it lost it was never close, now i'm not arguing with you, i already said that the federation makes up for it with other stuff, so there is no need to say it again.
 

Yeah, Im not arguing with you either. I was just annoyed at your use of this sentance:
"I believe that this test suggests if not prooves the extreme superiority of klingons and dominion over the federation"

And I had to enlighten you and everyone else why were those results as they were, because the way you describe it it seems the feds are some underdogs who have to rely on masses to destroy their enemies, when in fact it is the other way around ;)

Um, no, actually, it doesn't.  I already said that both that the "blue beam ships" as you so intellegently call them are superior when combined with a more varied fleet and that when massed they were ineffective against large groups of destroyers or other smaller ships.

In conclusion, you proved... nothing!  Way to go! :lol:

-edit

Well, considering that the fed's most effective "balanced" tactic (ie not the defiant) is destroyer swarming, your claims that they are not a massing type race just seems... stupid, for lack of better word.

in conclusion: you still havent completely grasped the point behind this topic. But fear not, you have to be close to it by now, keep trying dude :rolleyes:  

No, I have grasped the point, unless you mean some new point that I havn't been informed of.  

It seems like quite a while back that I acknowledged that the Defiant is OP.  

In fact, I never disputed it.

  So if you could stop chasing rabbits just to determine something you've already decided for yourself- that I'm an ingnorant son of a ***** who doesn't know the first thing about life and has no concept of reality- then mabye, just mabye, we can wrap up this pointless thread, since we all agree.

I'm neutral in this.

You spelled concept Wrong.

And the Akira is a powerful ship when massed, trust me.

Meh, typo.  Corrected.

Im sorry but only one ship is really that bad when massed

The warbird plain and simple is best  

on the next round of testing try pitting the same class ships against each other just for my curiousity (spelling??) for example sovvies vs sovvies, the different rhein refits also try 1 refit against a different refit like the phaser vs the torpedo or whatever it is.  

Yeah, lets see 16 defiants vs 16 warbirds!

D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

A suprising result. Eventhough Defiants pulses do only 60% of their full damage to large ships the Defiant won 1on1 with the D'deridex. This is purely because of the special weapon, as the D'deridex wasnt able to fire for full 21s and that is a BIG BIG advantage for the Defiant. 16vs16 Hypercube was not able to control the special weapon manualy and so they all fired all of their special weapons at a couple of D'deridexes thus wasting their advantage.
Note: Mijural gives defence bonus to the D'deridex.
------>Conclusion: Defiants special weapon really is too strong, it needs to be lowered. But as Optec already said that is already done


First damn topic the starter of this thread!
And we WILL test ALL ships we just you know like.....have lifes to attend to.

This is your list of ships that OWN when massed:


This is a comment u posted with your pics:


This is again one of your arguments "proving" the awesomeness of the "Blue beam ships" as I so intelligently call them:


These quotes are from the Defiant thread where u kept arguing how great these klingon ships are when massed, eventhough EVERYONE was saying otherwise.

Also you are saying that T15s qualify in the group of "destroyers or smaller ships" as blue beams suck against them. Let me enlighten you, T15 aka HEAVY CRUISER is a cruiser for the dominion with fast fireing pulses, long range and pretty weak shields.


Actually I proved my point pretty good, by disproving yours ;) (that was my intent all along :o)


And u tell us this by your considrable experiance in MP games? Let me tell you something: If you play vs AI and you mass ANY, that is correct I mean ANY FRICKIN SHIP TYPE you will win.
Now lets talk about your theory on massing destroyers as feds most effective tactic. You are Federation and I am Dominion and we play on Eraudi 1vs1. Right so u get right to your sabre/monsoon massing techniques and I for starters build like 8-16 bugs. You try to rush me but I will hold you back as, obviously, the Dominion are MUCH better than the federation at massing ships. You send first wave which is repulsed, u keep building those Sabres and when you send your other wave towards me I already have about 8 breen cruisers + 16 bugs you again get owned. By the time you get your third wave I would have 16+ breen cruisers and there is NO WAY IN HELL you are going to build enough destroyers fast enough to beat such a force of PULSE ships vs destroyers, not if your Federation.
If you want my advice, adapt to your enemies strategy. It works for every race and there is no way your gonna win against equal opponents by simply massing 1 type of ships, not with any race(except maybe if you go for extreme rushing using ktingas or puretech's bugs) but if you know what you are doing, you should repell that force.

Feds are actually a very well balanced race and their ships can go 1on1 with any races ships of equal cost and would have a good chance of winning. All you have to do is use your head when building a fleet and use your special weapons wisely as Feds in particular have a lot of special weapons that give different benefits to all of your fleet and not just 1 ship.



In the very FIRST post in this topic this is already done -.- Let me bring up the info again:

-D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

-Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

well the Ktinga rush i specialise in and its pretty useful to throw the enemy off balance right at the start especially in team games.

but ur right Barron there is no way ur gonna win with the Sabre monsoon rush you need the heavier guns for teh federation its the only way

yeah i told him that already, you'r right about swarming though, i mean it's just funny how people keep gathering and massing k'tingas when i already have 16 defiants, even though they could probably own 2-3 groups without severe losses, in fact i once owned a group of akiras without losses and they'r quite good agaist defiant class vessels.

baron put it well, change your freking tactics during the game, you cannot win if you'r entire fleet gets slaughtered without inflicting losses, or inflicting a few, if you just lost 4 groups of freking k'tingas without a kill, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!  

well thats where the massing of warbirds comes in like last night B)

yeah it was great, but warbirds only rocked becuse we had no ships to counteract them, i had monsoons and defiants and nivek had bugs and t-15 , all small ship killers, which you could have noticed when aways what was left after the attack were your warbirds and you ran away a couple of times, but ultimatelly, your allies massed small ships to keep our superior small ship killers buisy while the warbirds tore them appart.

yeah i know i agree with you

What i also says is we developed a really balanced fleet :)

by adding warbirds to the Smaller ships we had muscle as well as Cannonfodder

So the point of this thread was to... attack me?!  Way to go on your high and mighty goals, oh noble and honorable baron!  -_-  

Red Shirt I hate to be rude, but it has gotten to the point of flaming you because at this point you see are seemingly arguing against what everyone was saying. I would ask both parites to drop it. The blue beam ships are artillary ships and should be treated as such, weak to anything that is fast and can fire pretty fast. Defiants are unstobable

There was a comment earlier about the cloak being to powerful. This is one thing I think makes fleetops great, in A2 you picked up a clocked ship with a scout  :mellow: now atleast clocking has to some degree tactics. (although I still think the roumlans should get a better cloak.)

all the time i hear all this complaint about the cloak in A2, whats wrong with it. if you have the cloaked ship at green alert it will not be picked up by the detection net.

actually it will and having the grid on scouts was cheap cause all u had to do was keep a venture with the fleet and it was over for any cloaked fleets before they could even get a shot off

I personally love the cloak and regular playing has taught me its perfectly balanced if you use the cloak right

Like the last match i played where i cloaked and snuck into rhaz's base and obliterated him with 2 fleets of Rheins and warbirds :D

i love being able to do that

his fault he didnt get the grid B)

Emmm actually that test we did with blue beam ships was just so we can disprove your argument. Read carefully, you can see that my reply evolved only around that argument because you were hard-headed and didnt listen to us.

So actually when I wrote:

"These quotes are from the Defiant thread where u kept arguing how great these klingon ships are when massed, eventhough EVERYONE was saying otherwise.

Also you are saying that T15s qualify in the group of "destroyers or smaller ships" as blue beams suck against them. Let me enlighten you, T15 aka HEAVY CRUISER is a cruiser for the dominion with fast fireing pulses, long range and pretty weak shields.



Actually I proved my point pretty good, by disproving yours wink.gif (that was my intent all along ohmy.gif)"

So did I not prove my point in that blue beam ships are not good when massed? Or disprove yours that they only suck vs destroyers or smaller ships? I think I did both pretty good.
That sentance in the () is a joke and if you cannot see it as such, I am terribly sorry  and I wont use jokes around you anymore  ^_^



Now Im done arguing with you on this thread since this is THE BALANACE thread and this arguing really dosnt add anything worthy to it ;)


Thanx for the compliment, I think your pretty "cool" yourself ;)
......................................................................................................


A question for all of you:
Do u think the Dominion needs a Vorcha/Akira/Generix type cruiser? Cause I think they seriously lack some ships in that department, nor do they have efficient ships to fight them.
I came to that conclusion when I saw a fleet of T15s, bugs and bombers being raped by a fleet of akiras. The dominion had numerical advanage of course :) Now you can fight these ships with Battleships but u will get owned cause u cannot really build that many. :( Anyway I just wanted to know what the rest of you feel about the issue :)

BTW these are dominion cruisers and their roles(as I see them):
-Escort cruiser: Intrepid-type of cruiser, good vs big ships and useful because of its special weapon from which your whole fleet gets an advantage :)

-Heavy cruiser: A very good ship, but only against small ships and maybe against medium. It has pretty weak shields though and if it gets targeted it dies pretty fast :(

-Siege cruiser: Second support ship, some of its special weapons are good, brutal force and shielding wise it cannot stand up to any cruiser really.

-Battlecruiser: A battleship destroyer IMO with its 2 torps and fighters. Its special weapon does not work properly tho and its shielding is quite weak as well. Also against cruisers a fair procentage of its torps miss and its nowhere as effective as it is against battleships.

the DOm do really lack a proper cruiser but then again they have the best Battleship in the game so it depends

i wouldnt mind seeing the escort cruiser Buffed so it could be like teh Akira but personally from when ive played with you Barron

The dominion are fine you always seem to manage quite well the dom are great the way they are u just have to manager yourfleets

fight large battleships take the bombers and breen

if u need to fight destroyers the T15 is perfect

and as for cruisers u will always have more bugs than they have cruisers
and thats where suicide run comes in

ill cherish that moment forever!

hehe, you should, it was a good moment.

on the subject, i must say, that the dominion do lack a proper akira/vorcha/generix strenght ship, but it's not necessary to give them one, they could get stronger cruisers or battleships, on the other hand, they do have ships capable of fending them off, but only in mass, since they don't have anything that could go 1on 1 against the akira/vorcha that would be in it's price range.

I urge Optec or Doca Cola to answer on this thread, becuse this is a really pressing issue.

write a PM to them; helps most of the time ;)

keeping the cloaked ships on green alert worked for me.

The military units of the Dominion wont probably change very much until the final release. Yep the Dominion has the weakest cruisers - basically they have none - and the federation is up with the strongest. The largest advantage of the Akira is that it can support a fleet due to defence patterns - and multiple Akiras can support themselves rendering a federation fleet quite durable but greatly reducing its fire power.

Yeah well its fine the way it is

except maybe the supply cost of a few things but thas not really important right now

but from what i can gather from the series and movies is that the Akira is more of an offensive ship than a defensive one, inside a fed fleet that has to mean something. perhaps a switch, with the monsoon's  proximity photon ;)  

Hmm yeah i didnt think of that ur right

All fed ships are basically defencive ships, as thats their policy and thats how they build their ships. I agree 100% with the way these policies are atm in FO(kligons-offensive, fed-defensive, rom-system, dom-balanced)

The Akira is literaly a ship meant for war-time. What peace time ship serves as a major hanger bay and has like 16 torpedo tubes. Wouldent be the only time the feds made a ship for war but called it a peacetime ship.

Well then make it a light battleship and stop the crap with the cruiser and just make it canon

Or leave it as it is
 

i'm for leaving it as it is, since it could just tamper with the balance and since the romulans, federation and the klingons are balanced up to a point already, the devs atleast have somewhere to start for the borg and the dominion.

Even if this question was asked in some other ways earlier.... I didnt find a clear answer to it:

What are you planning for the Dominion ?
As far as I know:
1. Dreadnaught (Special Abillities - maybe the artillery ?)
2. A third mode for the Construct ship - Tetracel collector.

Something else ?  

And to the akira:
Well, its a battleship and ist strong. (And looks soooo much better then the one from Armada2) But I think you can led it be how it is.... maybe change something on the costs....  

the akira is a strong offensive ship to be sure, but it falls somewhat short of "battleship" status in my book (and im a fan of it). it is a heavy cruiser, battle cruiser tops but not a full fledged battleship. and you cannot possibly deny it is offensive in both its design and intention for use, regardless of whatever other ships are around ships are around it.

i just think it should have a salvo mode on its torps so it can fire a salvo of four when needed

Sure it could get salvos :)
The thing about akiras is, whenever I saw them in a movie/series they didnt really impress me very much :S Not even with their awesome 16 torpedo tubes....

in fact - as far as i remember - you do always just see one torpedo coming out of this.. module something between the warp nacells.. i don't want to know where the other 15 tubes are installed, maybe there is one under the captains char, just for security reasons..
If talking about Federation vessels blasting a firework of photon torpedos through space we should also think about a very economical factor: photon torpedos are armed with anti matter and antimatter is a hell of expensive stuff. in one of the source books (i think its "the technology of the USS enterprise-d" (at least thats the german title translated into english)) you can read that a anti-mater transport has to be escortet by at least one galaxy class ships (at a point where there were less then 10 in service) and a hand full of additional ships.
The Akira might have been designed as a "last resort blast-me-to-hell" solution against exceptional military forces (like borg cubes, borg cubes or borg cubes for example) but as it was put into active mass production service replacing the miranda losses after the dominion war i'm sure it is no longer armed with 16 tubes - or if it might still have the tubes it does not carry enough ammunition to use all of them at once effectively during battle.

Thats at least my opinion :D
There will probably be a blast-me-to-hell refit of the akira for either an avatar or another feature in a future version  ^_^  

If you really want to see a ship that ***** torps, see the Dominion Dreadnought in the Valiant episode of DS9. I remember a scene where the Valiant was flying towards it and it just started litterally bombarding it with torps, there were like 20 in the air at the time :S Though its true most of them missed lol it still should be quite effective vs Battleships and Stations ;)

The only Akira torp salvo I saw was in FC when the whole fleet fired all of their weapons to a spot on a borg cube - and that was like 4 torps :S

well, the thing about the akira is weve only seen it once in canon, and for all we know it had already taken dammage, or never fired at its maximum capacity. My theroy is that it cant fire from multiple tubes at once (like mby 2) but that the 16 tubes are so that it can fire in multiple directions and angles. I do think that a burst fire would be cool. Even if it was a special for an avatar.

well yeah we have sene the Akira once properly you do see it in Chintoka when they lose to teh breen but its destroyed

but Salvo of 4 would atleast give the akira's a little edge at the start of battles

and you could probs do the same thing for the vorcha seeing as it has the burst fire tubes too :)

in first contact, during the final push against the cube you will see the Thunderchild fire more photon torpedoes than any other class out there, (this includes a nebula with a weapons pod).
I just really want it to be put back into an offensive role in FO. In stock A2 it was classy with the Chain reaction pulsar, but tbh it seems to have been demoted in FO.

just my 2 cents (again).

maybe there could be an upgrade to quantum torps ;)

I just watched that sequence again, it fired exactly 3 (THREE) PHOTON torpedos at the cube, nothing more. And they most certainly werent QUANTUM torps Adil :P

Akira is IMO the second strongest cruiser in FO (right behind Vorcha) and it is a really good ships with a really good special weapon and it isnt too costy either. More and more people are also starting to mass them in MP, would they do that if it was not strong enough? ;)

Also in A2 and in A1 wasnt as strong as it is in FO. I think so at least. In A1 it was on par with Griffin and Vorcha and in FO its a better than griffin and worse than Vorcha, but its cost is also apropriate. And it had only phasers and no torps ;)

look closely, it fires a volly of 5 in just one look at it. and fires a couple in other scenes just before that.
isolated scene (http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GAkira1.jpg) a couple fired here ;)

if i remember correctly the 5 burst comes just before ( and during the start of) it banking away (http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GAkira2.jpg) from the cube.
and no i dont think quantums suit the akira.

no i dont mean get quantums from the start

Im saying get an upgrade or an avatar ability for quantums  

oh may bad (again :D ), suppose so, but i would prefer an avatar upgrade that allows the akira to fire 2 or 3 photons instead of the 1. OR an avatar bonus that switches the akira special weapon to an offensive one instead of its current defensive one.

That is not a volley of 5 but a volley of 3 plus 4 more. So thats 2 volleys and u dont even know if its from the same akira  :mellow:  

well maybe the refit of the akira could help but its not that bad as risner

what im interested in seeing right now is if the Excellsior 2 dies too fast for its cost but its not too bad just needs a little speed bump

and as for the other races the Griffin really ****** me off last night with its sensor jammer like what the **** is the point for 2 seconds

well either way it passes the 3 you said earlier, and yes they are from the same Akira because the ship has the same registry... moments before the akira banks away you see the top part of the saucer and the registry visble from there... NCC-63549 ;)

@4 o 11, yeah i dont really bother researching the sensor jammer, only ever if i got time and resorces on my hands and even then only really for the sake of having it *shrugs*

Didnt really look at the registry lol. The thing is dont all fed ships have this burst ?  :huh:  

lol, not all, many ships have the same torpedo tubes as the Intrepid (and as such fire the same way). also my gues would be that a lot of the smaller classes would simply have run out of torpedoes at this point (that is if they havent just joined in like the E-E)

well, about the starbases i did some testing and the resoults are:

Klingons starbase VS Federation starbase - Klingon starbase wins with 98 hull remaining.
Dominion starbase VS Federation starbase - Dominion starbase wins with 70 hull remaining.

Others are to be tested.

Well that was obvious, I could have told u that without the testing :D
Its because fed base has pulse phasers :)

yes i enticipated this resoult, i think though the starbases should be boosted up 10x it's current strenght and it should be upgradable.

also if starbases are going to be beefed so much... either their price needs to be increased ALOT (10000 dil atleast) or make them unbuildable, because otherwise people will just spam them instead :D

ermm LOL ? Now I need to imagine how you tested this; the Battle of the Tortoises :D

yep, the federation starbase is armed with Pulse Weapons (http://www.fleetops.net/index.php?p=FOweapons) would be strange if it had won :D

well, we were testing, and i was bored, since baron and adil were fighting at the moment, so i kindly asked them to park their const. ships in the blue nebulas, than i came with a sovereign on green alert and transported,, built the starbases and tested it
i sort of knew who will win though.

Yeh that testing night was cool showed me some stuff  

You know after playing more and more games i think the sabres have to be sorted out abit cause they really do take a beating from all other destroyers

Their long range is supposed to take them out of danger. If you can dance them properly, bops wont even catch u :P
Plus one destroyer has to be the worst, why not sabre? Also they have the monsoon which is a much better destroyer :)

i have to agree with baron on the saber. It has the longest range, and on top of that it has the advantage of doing the same amount of damage to all vessel sizes. What you were doing was comparing it to the other destroyers, well as baron said one of them has to be the weakest, but it will fair slightly better against other larger vessels than the other destroyers will (that plus the monsoon make it acceptable to be the weakest). At the moment i think it is ok :)  

Well the problem with the sabre is that shrikes are faster and have medium range so it gets raped pretty quick theres no dancing away from them

And its almost the same for bops

Shrikes are more expensive, though.

if bops and shrikes rushed ur minings say 8 of them, 10 sabres will be able to go in and pick them off from long range but i agree they cud do with an extra offensive value or 2 not defensive to give them a bit of a kick ;)

Ive seen a fleet of 5 shrikes take out 10 sabres with ease

and ive also seen bops take out Sabres with no trouble at all

Fair enough the monsoon is a great ship but if ur mayson it doesnt help that you need to research an expensive chassis upgrade and the station

for risner it aint too bad but its still alot  

agreed, if the sabre got an avatar bonus with mayson like increased offensive it wud deal with shrikes a lot better then they do now, for an defensive race the power of the sabre is a let down imo.

Shrike and Bop speed is the same as the Sabres, you CAN dance around them ;)


That depends on the conditions of the fight.



I think its ok the way it is because of 1 simple fact. Feds get real strong in the cruiser and Battleship phase of the game ;)
They cant own at everything now can they :S

your testing proved other races are more powerful like the romulans for example. i know what u mean about dancing around them and their evasive manouveres but still i would like the sabre's phaser to have more oomph! only a bit mind!  ^_^  

baron, i dissagree, okay, the saber i don't care if it changes, but the feds need at least 1 ship, capable of repelling off rush attacks, couse even if they are good in battleships, that kinda doens't mean much if you can't battle out the resources at the beggining, or if he's a constant threat and keeps destroying your stuff, now is it?

ever tried pulse turrets against smaller ships? :)

have you ever beaten 8 bops with 2 turrets that you can actually build while he has those 8 bops?

from the costs of 8 bops you can build 3-4 turrets and yep they eat them up with ease :)

that is true but building defences around ur mining is costly and fed players sacrifice ships to build turrets and if u have 4 moon sets defendind them all with turrets proves futile as he wud have numurous bops and kvorts by then.

Look, massing wont be so easy in V3 as destroyer build time will increase. So other races will fight off rushes easier. The fact of tha matter is they MUST NOT be best at everything cause that would be just unbalanced now wouldnt it 8-)
And we all know what Norway is capable off with its special weapon and u dont even need that many.

Also u say how feds are stupid against rushes etc etc, yesterday me smoer and frodo played 1v1v1 on Hammertime map and Smoer was rushing me, I kicked him back with Sabres and Turrets. And won in the end by defeating both of their fleets and he had a lot of kvorts in that fleet. Smoer was klingon me and Frodo were Feds. :)

yes optec, that is true, but why would he attack the turrets? if he can get around by base cloacked early on and take out my minings and researches, on the other hand, if i build them inside my base, closest to the center, my moons are screwed, since if i build turrets i can't build ships, and scattering turrets around the base means they can take them out one by one, so you see the dillema here? Ships being too weak and turrets being just a stupid tactic.

Depending on the map, use a combination of both ^^

nah, i still think the sabre is one of the best destroyers ingame cause its usable in all gameplay phases as fire support, i love to use them. they will probably stay as they are :)

this has been nagging me for a while... but i dont see how the FO team can make balancing changes when i hear u dont even play online, i guess you work off of the results of games between yourselves OR against AI and sometimes i guess on the back of observations made by regular players in the community...

no disrespect... but i just cannot see how you can have that clearer an idea what needs changing.

can one of u explain how u do it?

sorry. :<

The Sabre is fine, it has a very long range, and just build up a couple turrets at each vulerable spot that can buy you the time for your mobile forces to get there.

And if you think the Feds are so weak, try out another race against them, and you'll see how "weak" they are.

Well u can always learn to play with a race u want lol
Its quite funny really, since I dont like the Rommies very much in ST but Im best with them in FO yet for some reason I suck with klingons :S



^^^ this was a reply to Optec post, which he deleted lol

You also have to factor in the fact that sabres are cheaper and slightly faster to build than bops (I could be wrong about the build time- correct me if I am)

ay, it has a long range, but you just don't get the point! massing sabers is doable yes! but i am talking about the freaking start of an ONLINE game, when you MUST battle for resources AND you cannot win that battle against klingon bops, dominion bugs or romulan shrieks/rhienns! And so you'r opponent get's the upper hand, don't get me wrong though i have been able to subdue them on many occasions, but only becuse i moved to monsoons and massed them at the moons! And even then i got slaughtered later on, when he got enough bops together! And you must understand i had more resources and more expencive ships.

Build a turret or 2 at those moons and a couple of sabres and your set ^^ Then u can move onto bigger, better, more expensive ships :D

Bugs sure do build faster than sabres, BUT at the cost of 6 supplies per unit u NEED extra moon sets with the Dominion ;) With feds u can easily manage with only 2 moon sets ^^

Cube i agree with you more than anyone cause im the one who ur talking about with the bops so i would know B)

Look the problem with the sabre is that for example if im klingon i can spam out KTINGAS and beat them !

Let alone bops

( ktingas are cheaper ;) )

so if i get 8 bops which i do pretty damn fast i can take out his entire base if he tried to turret his moons cause ive taken down a fed base with 10 bops before so ....

Yep and I can pretty much **** a base up with 1 bug if the opposing player has nothing to defend himself with  :rolleyes:
I would know I have done it b4(with 4 bugs actually :D)

The point is, the strenght of the ship does not matter if your enemy is stupid  :rolleyes:
Anyway, I REALLY thing u're underestimating the poor'ol sabre :D cause whenever I play feds I use them quite a lot :S

and i play with them all the time...and that 2 turrets and some sabers at the moons tactic? Hasn't worked very well and i've used it quite alot of times, ask 4of11.

yup i know it doesnt work  

although it was not necessary the sabres passive ability will now grant a 20% hitchance reduction instead of 10% to make their usage easier

nice, now there is no need to overgun it :)

this includes pulses as well as torps?

See that will help :)

thanks optec i'm sure this will help the ol sabres deal with rushes better

I swear to god guys if the sabre becomes too strong Im gonna punch every one of you in the face :D :P

Seriously tho, I hope it will handle rushes better :)

i did notice how weak the bugs actually are today, i thought they had strength and strength in numbers, but now i see they r really kinda **** :\

Yeah they are pants but they cost **** all and can ram B)

the build speed and strenght makes them formidable foes against any adversary, not to mention the ram ability, which can reak havoc amongst enemy forces.

a big minus is the supply cost though

that kinda balances the whole game out then really imo

yeah, i agree

So it was just the Sabre that was missing in this great Balancing puzzle and now its complete haha :D
Thats funny, since u know how "important" Sabres really are :D

well you dont wanna get raped by 16 bops right at the beginning of the game  

yeah, kind of makes me angry every once in aa while

Monsoons, sabres, norway, turrets ^^

bops





shrieks

Yeah i dont get how people try and say any of the fed ships counter the bops that early in the game cause i know for a fact you Will not HAvE Norways that early with plasma coil i can get my bops quicker than your norways

How many times has it ever happened that a fed player was owned when he was rushed by just 1 player?? You are in advantage when defending and sabres are great for just that and if you'r gonna rush feds expect them to have at least the same number of ships u have and they can fire at you from FAR FAR AWAY.
Basically all of you are seriously underestimating the feds (same happened when u overestimated the Breen Battleships  :rolleyes: ). Yes feds arent so good early on, but they are not so helpless as some of you might lead people to believe. Its total crap and u all know it.
Usually when a fed player was raped early on was either because:
-more players attacking him at once, now if 3 guys rush u, u're gonna be ****** and i dont care what race u are. That is if your allies dont help u quickly  ^_^

-Beacuse the fed player was too slow, now this simply isnt the ship fault but everyone knows its easiest to blame it on the ships if your not good ;)

-Because the fed player tried to rush with sabres. Now they just arent designed for that and if you do it and then die, dont go blaming it on the ship.

Thats what I think anyway.  :D



Now to anwser your post adil, no u can not make norways fast enough. But if you first make like 8 sabres and then go on Norways, you should be fine IMO.

Dont make any mistake, Im not saying the feds are good early on, in fact I think they are worst of all races. BUT the things some of you are saying makes people think that feds are just worthless pieces of sh|t and not worth playing with cause its "obvious" your gonna loose with them  -_-

Barron be honest as it stands right now the only people who can counter the bop Rush Effectively are Cube, you and Mark and maybe dan

thats all

the bop rush is so deadily because the sabre range is negated early on because of the cloak , you know it i know it

and dont lie and say u would have the grid cause you cant have it out that fast  

the fact is that there is a huge void between player skill here.

some players still DONT get the fact that resources are the KEY to this ******* game, stopping ur opponent getting more than u is VITAL.

Yesterday in the 3v3 (baron, cube and mark vs me, frodo, smoer) the game was over as soon as frodo and smoer let cube and mark hold the spare resources...

me and baron both stood off the resources between us, he destroyed my cons. and i destroyed his...

until people understand HOW to play this game, there is no point discussing balancing to do with feds, because unless ur with one of the people 4of11 mentioned, u will get wasted almost right away.

aint i just grumpy sometimes? :P

double-post OH MY GOD!

thanks

Yeah i agree with you on that

I have a problem with how remores are now.  I was playing online the other day when I realised how dang massable they are.

Depends red, If you play against any of us i doubt you would get remores  

I didn't, I was Klingon.  They ripped up my K'vorts and Lus'pets.

Dont bother with the luspet costs too much its a great ship but if u can get 1 more vorcha out then its worth it  

Still, they're what- half again as big as the remores?  They should be able to cut through remores like a hot knife through butter.  Still, remores own waaaaay more than they should.

actually they dont

Remores cost

600Di 600Tri

and it costs to get the specials so they are fine the way they are the reason i said dont get the luspet is that if the remore uses ecm ur not gonna hit him with torps it just aint happening

Plus percise volley and vector calculation help them alot so ....

you don't play much do you?

red have you noticed how you seem to be the only one who has a problem with the way remoores are?

oi dan u ********** in that 3v3 game i was risner so wasnt doin the saber dance i was going for akiras and intrepid and had a few remores and excelsiors plus some defiants ready then u got raped by baron and it all went tits up! i know i shouldn't have let cube take the resources but he wasnt going to attack me until u lot were ****** so figured i could sort his minings out later on :) its a pity cube decided to attack with his team lol

there's nothing wrong with the remores, the costs are ok and the special weapons cost for it aren't that bad since feds have a lot of trit during the game anyway

aye theres no harm playing to ur strengths but letting an opponent have an extra moon set is just a shot in the foot, there is NO way back from that, no matter what ships you have.

if ur opponent has more resources, hes making more ships... its a simple truth, theres a fine line between winning and losing and mistakes like that just tip the balance.

no offence btw m8 i dont think either u or smoer are **** players =) and I LOVE U BOTH REALLY.

ah i love you too man! i cud have taken the moons with what i had when he was helping out his allies thats how i ****** up, IMO i would have changed the tide of war so to speak ;) if i fcuking attacked when some shrikes were elsewhere :hmmm:  

Was that an attempt at flaming or an honest comment?  Judgeing by some of your previous remarks, I'd assume flaming.

  But, since I'm a nice person, I'll give you the benifit of doubt and simply ask what you base your claims off of.

children, children!
Enough of this. If you want to sort this out: Please don't do it here! Go and play a 1on1 against each other or something else
<zynical> or cube go the US of a, buy a gun and have a duell with redShirt </zynical>

 

redshirt, i was just observing some of your previous statements and asked you a genuine question, partually also becuse i have never seen you play.
Besides most of our posts and feature requests are made by playing online, which i suppose you don't.

Topic closed