Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations

this is the bigest disaster sins early 1900's. meny pepal ded or missing. electricity, water, gass, plumbing, are all off line and will be for a long time to come.

the survivors are mostly pore and dont have much. pleace donate to the red cross.

oil, wood, coffe, prises will rise in the usa sharply posabuly cosing a nuther resetion like the one after 911.

this thread is not for blame.

(http://www.redcross.org/static/file_cont3321_lang0_1309.jpg)

Just to fix something, if I recall a very large natural disaster happened in asia just like 8 months ago. But yes please donate, still a horrible horrible event.

It is a terrible tragedy, it's too bad so many people ignored the evacuation order. It could have been much worse of course, if Katrina hadn't drifted east a little before it hit a 10 foot wall of water would have marched through the city, probably killing everyone in it.

It's also being reported now that National Guard units from multiple states are preparing to initiate combat operations to reclaim order in parts of the city that are currently under the control of roving gangs of thugs. One NG soldier was shot non-critically at the Superdome and is currently recovering.

I heared that the guverner said shoot to kill all thieves to restore order :S...
It must really be bad  :(  

glad i'm in Arizona, landlocked, and desert. Our only problem is the occasional flash flood.  

i've already donated £35, sorry i cant afford to donate anymore :(  

thare has ben nothing like befor. this is the bigest desater sins like 1906 i think it was.

this hericane devistated meny states. new orleans is having a worst case scenario. new orleans is under woter. sewage, gass, is floating everywhere aloge with ded bodys.

meny of the pepal how wher left be hind in new orleans wher pore old pepal. meny still trapted in thare fluded homes.

I truely is. Just check out CNN or FoxNews or Washington Post, Wall Street Journal  newspapers, it's really bad.

Well uh...250,000 people killed...that is a bad event...worse then what we got...

what i am very very surprised about is the lack of aid given to the usa from the uk, i would of thought that we would have been there helping the us stand back up, i know your a big country and can handal yourself but still a friendly gesture would be nice.

I doubt the un will give any or if they do it will be very little aid to the usa, the un is very biased imho.

"Decided to remove the next bit, its more for the pol thread than this"

but to sum it all up, i can't belive that the fore fathers built there, its kind of stupid, i think building in tonadoe alley and on the san andreas fault line was possibly the most stupid thing european settlers could have doen, in a way the should accept resonsibly for that as would you build a city in a hazord area?  

Are you crazy the tsunami was much much worse

i think he means nothing as bad has hit america before... maybe :sweatdrop:  

America hasn't had a disater like this since 1906 but they have had hundreds of smaller ones. This disater destroyed a city and the area around it. The Tsunami destroyed entire contries!

but then again, a state in the usa is about as big as a lot of countrys...

Look this CANNOT compare to the tsunami, no matter what it destroyed, just look at the number of fatalities  :mellow:  

Money wise I bet it's worse then the Tsunami, but life wise, Tsunami takes the cake.

*None of the following is intended to incite racial hatred or anything such as, just my views.


TBH im pretty disgusted by the way the US has handled this, yes its a major disaster and yes there are alot of people dead. But the fact that the US has turned down help from both the UK and El Salvador (spelt wrong, sorry) says alot about their attitude towards this crisis.

This seems more about protecting Americans "big image" than caring for their own people.

This crisis also seems to be being used as propaganda by a large number of the black community to suggest that this is a racist attack against black people, especially those in New Orleans, they seem to think that the reason they didnt receive help straight away was because of their colour.

The way the people in New Orleans have reacted is also strange, maybe this is because of the way Americans live, it seems to be a real comfort zone compared to the rest of the world, even to the UK.
As soon as theres a crisis the entire American structure just seems to fall apart, maybe this is because (although i dont know alot of american history) America hasnt fought a war or had to deal with anything within its own borders in...? 100 years?

Its pathetic, really. To see the so called "greatest nation" on the planet brought to its knees and thrown into total chaos by mother nature.

There dosnt seem to be any sense of urgency at the moment, everything is taking so long with this incident.


Maybe im entirely wrong about everything, and sorry for any offence... but I do know one thing which is that Mother Nature is the closest thing to god on this earth and when it decides to bitchslap us lesser forms of life, we will die.


Deepest sympathies to all who have suffered, best wishes to those still in the city.

very trow too meny latly.

thare was 3 hurricanes one after a nuther hit florida not to long a go. naw we got katrena. very werd wether.

well if you stop to think about it. when pollution is dumpted in to the air it worms the air. when the earth and especially the water is wormed it lets more cimacals go that cose the air to worme more and faster.

hurricanes are made stronger by worm woter.

wher do you think el nino came from:

(http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/guides/mtr/eln/gifs/home.gif)

Theres quite a sense of urgency, and we are rushing to help all those people. Gotta understand we have to deal with the people who broke into the gunstores and got those AKs and who are now shooting at our choppers in a vain attempt to get out of the city.

That and if a city with 300,000+ people suddenly finds 90% of itself under water, theres not too much of an infastructure in place to fix that...

Of course the hurricane did more dam money wise, remember it hit the US and tsunami hit people that lived what one can hardly call a house :S

I know...thats why I said what I did...

the race problom was sumbed up for me on the news hawer tv show.

is not that thay wher ignored be cuss thay wher black thay wher ignored be cuss thay wher pore.

but that duss not meen that this was not about race. the reson the mogorty wher black and pore in lawesana and that fact that thare is a unfare hiyer amont of pore black pepal in american city is be cuss americans have not gotin past segragation yet.

Or maybe it's because thats where alot of black people settled long ago...and they still live there...

thay have had more than a nuff time to intagrate in to the poplation farly and have not.

this is be cuss not anuff is being dun to help tham intagrate.

Actually ewm, without getting into politics too much here, look at the behavior of people black and white in mississippi and alabama, and even rural parts of louisiana, totally different from the thugs in new orleans. So the black/poor/whatever thing really doesn't make sense. Plenty of black poor people and white poor people are behaving in a very civil manner in other areas, I'm really going to have to go with the theory that some New Orleaners who ignored the evacuation order are just filthy degenerate people.

thre probloms lies in haw meny black pepal per capita are pore. is you look at haw meny white pepal per capita are pore thare a lot lower % than black pepal have.

to ferther boster my pont we have never had a black presadent or vise presadent evry realy consitered. yes thare have ben black canides but never eny realy looked at serisely and i can say with cofadents non will for a wile to come.

thares a reson thay call it the white house.

the pore parts of dc and californa have a hiy % of african aricans or black pepal and in meny uther states.

when you are born pore and black you have 2 big chages to over come.

Uh are you turning this isn't a third political thread? Can't blame another race for one races problems when there not really being discrimanted against. And I think the white house is called the white house because it's painted...white...
 

well we used tham as slaves we have a resposbulaty to get tham on thare feet.

this is not a political thread. i am discuting the probloms that led to the deaster of herican Katrina.


your right the white house is painted white inside and out.

Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that building a giant city of a million people below sea level in an area known to have hurricanes and storm surge was the primary factor leading to this tragedy.

agreed

even if the citizens have been warned ...do u really think that a poor family leave a non assured home easier than a rich family an assured house and wait outside the affected area in a hotel until it´s over? Poor families would lose all of their existence and there have been so many hurricans and nothing happened all the years before.  

Nevertheless, in my eyes it´s sad  that the american military can be present at two countries inbetween 24 h but cant help their own ppl in that time...they had to wait 5 fully days!!!! thats really sad.  

USA - I thought the strongest country in the world...But it seems that they even can't make fast moves to protect their own civil rights when the crisis comes...Whole USA administration and politic reaction is pathetic. They waited for 5 days to help them...arogant rich idiots...It would be realy interesting what would happen if Washington or Boston was stormed by Katrine, how fast would help come...Bush must go down after this.  

well i have herd meny pepal say "this is capitalisom at its werst". its not so much thay we cood not its that we did not. my god thare was a milatry ship in the golf of mexico that had over 1000 beds and a lorg medical section that is just siting thare up untill a day or 2 ago.

evin fadell castro has offered solgers to help with the desister haw sad is that.

i think castro's probably doing this to get the americans even more irrate. he probably knows that america isn't gonna let any other troops into the country, (probably not even british ones), so i think that offer is a wind-up

ya but the sad part is we need tham.

To our european friends: what you see in the US should be a warning to your own nations about the inability of large government bureaucracies to get anything accomplished in a timely manner. The same Navy that single-handedly saved hundreds of thousands of Indonesians from certain death was incapable of supporting an American city because of requirements to work through various federal agencies (FEMA, Red Cross, Northern Command, etc.) instead of taking decisive, independent action.

The complete lack of local leadership by the mayor and governor further complicated rescue efforts (reference the Ray Nagin Memorial Motor Pool). The lesson here gentlemen is if the sh*t really hits the fan, no one will save you or look out for you and your family except YOU. Not the government, police, military, whoever. They have more important things to do, like kill looters and rebuild infrastructure.

What you just said has also being used as a excuse of terrorism. Though I agree that the american inferstruture as about as effective as the adverage junior school council.

No we did'nt, our generation had nothing to do with that, its like saying all Germans should pay for WW2 (come to think about it germany did'nt pay for WW2) or maybe the british should pay for taking over the world along with the romans???

whats done is done  and as it was not done by us then we don't pay, how would you like it having to pay for a crime your grandfather commited?!

another reason why i don't like the idea of the eu, but thats more for the pol thread.

what i am confested... germany?

what i am saying is meny of the black pepal in the herican hit state are the grate grate grate grate sons of slaves. when you are born in to perverty its hard to get out in america. we have a resposbulty to pay to tham for the state thay are in.

we are in big part resposabule to help tham not only be cuss of thare grate grate grand fother being used as slave but be cuss thay are americans and deserve the same opertonity that the american midal class has.

I'm not payin tax dollars to people who had plenty of time to get out of the way of this hurricane on the grounds that it's somehow the white mans fault. I WILL pay taxes and donate to charity to help the people who lost all their stuff and couldn't afford insurance.

I knew this would turn into another political thread, I just knew it, and were back to america bashing.  

its cheeper to get the pepal out of the citty than have to baby sit tham while cleen off the rods of ded bodys to do it after werds.

i am not america bashing. i am ponting out the probloms that led to the desater of herican Katrina.

Of course it is...unless they don't have transportation...

I was mainly refering to the people who were america bashing, but you should be ashamed of yourself for starting it, and making a third forum scourge.

i will not be ashamed for tolking about proboms in the usa and tring to find slutions i have dun nuthing rong to be ashamed about.

i shood be comined for bring atinchon to the problom cosed by the herican and geting pepal to make donations.


thare is a difrants be tween toling about probloms and amrican bashing thare has ben verly lital of that in this thred if eany. this tread is about a lorg desater that wen haribly rong from the start.

Ok well i'm not posting on this political thread disguised as a...political thread...again.

I think South Park said it best, Hippie Liberal Douche.

this is not a politacl tred i am not tolking a about politics gees... i am tolking about the probloms left by Katrina.

this is not libral or conservative this is reality and reality sucks some times.

this topic is not about blame and i have not blamed eny one.

good to see nuttin changed in the meantime :lol:
didnt realized the things happened wit 'katrina'. dont got a tv anymore, cause it blew up a few weeks ago n im not a person whos reading much/many news on the internet.
seems like u got enough problems in the states right now without something like terrorists or politics.

its a haribal this desater so meny pepal ded or dieing. pepal had to what 4 days i think it was be for geting help in the strongest contry in the world.

thare was good woring that is was gona hapin and not much was dun to help the pore. thay wher put in the the local super dome. if Katrina had hit strate on meny have sed the super dome whood have ben a super coffin.

meny ports of the citty is under water and pepal are traped in ther fluded home. the water that is luding the plase is mixed with suige gass and what ever elss it tuched the risk of calera and uther sicknesis.

i watched a program (which i can send you its 3.13gb though) which explains all about Katrina and New Orleans, i personaly blame the forfathers, you don't build a city that far below sea level, next to a salt lake (which is fed by the sea) and by the mississippi (or how ever you spell it). I also found out the the hurricane (tornadoe call it what ever) did very little damage, the the mini sunami that hit the city a fw hours after (called a storm surge and was 30ft high, which was a record breaker i think) but it was the downpour of rain which followed the storm, that flooded and killed many people. Most people where starting to return to therte homes at this point and where caugh off guard.


but new orlenas faults are

• below sea level
• trapped inbween to huge water masses
• in tornadoe allie
• has to relie on pumps to remove rain water (everyday use not just for removing the water there now)

you don't build a city when it has that many hazards, i still will never find the common sense the founds of la had, build a city next to a fault line!!!! that sounds like a good idea!!!!

perhaps it was not known about these faults, back when the city was first starting to be built. plus don't forget about the ever changing weather cycle, there are many things that happen to the weather that never used to. for eg. think about Britain, we NEVER used to get tornadoes, hurricanes yes but never the dreaded "twister" actually touching down. now we get them (mainly small ones) quite often up in the midlands area (Birmingham & Aston Villa to name a few).  

humm, your no weather expert are you??? we get up to 100 ayear and always have doen, i have seen a few of them in my life, except they don't go very far. it was just bad luck for brimingham.

you are i see :rolleyes:  hurricanes and tornadoes are not the same thing (british explaination). Hurricanes are just very high gale force winds, not to mention being invisible to the eye. Tornadoes/twisters, are exactly what you see in the movies, those visible funnel clouds, that touch down to earth. dont forget that a tornado is NOT counted as one UNLESS it actually touches earth. so in retrospect NO we get 100s of tornadoes FORMING but not actually touching down.


no its only within the last few years to a decade that extreme/exotic weather has started forming in Britain. so of course you only being what 16/17 would only remember the last decade or so. what i said is quoted from a 97 year old (family friend) who has lived in Britain all his life, only leaving to fight in a world war, then coming straight back. so i think he knows at least a little bit more about Britain's weather than you.

but anyway this is now straying away from  

i dont usger stand what you are triying to say about 3.13gb?

the 4 fothers had nuthing to do with new orleens contrution its was the frinch how made it i was told. ferther more it was made at a time when lital was know about hericans and meny threts that cood hert new orleens.

and it is speled mississsippi that one i can remiber be cuss it rimes.

Well if a 9 or 10 earthquake hits Los Angeles it's all over, no one is going to get through that alive.

i the show i watched i have on the comp, its 3.13gb big, and even if the french did build it they should still have more common sense

@coolhandab, yeah hate to see the carnage left over if that were to happen :(

@eufnoc, but it was the french lol  :D
 

if L.A. has that leval i am afred the hole city will fall in to the sea.

back to Katrina
some of the polls taking by cnn was scary.

pepal think in the usa the reson the gass prices are hye is becuss of uther contrys fixing prices.

and thay think that no one shood be blamed for the pore respose.

and thay think if resposabultty must be handed out it must go to the states respose.

is my contry insane!!!

i sher hope thay come to thare sinces soon or i will pull all my hare out.

ok political thread here but all i want to say they knew 10 years ago that something lke that would happen so they could prevent it or just take a simple insurance to cover the damage. i mean holland is below sealevel but you don't see any floods here, it is all about management

o my god!

no body is tolking about political. this tread is about Katrina.

umm where was the pol bit from what roach just said???

i kind of agree with them tbh, the white house is not going to do its best to get a bad name, tto get people to hate them are they... there was somthing you don't know about.

well if eny one gets blamed it will be realy bad for that groop.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i just heard on CNN that bushs cronnys and hardline suporters bacisly bush pepal want to start a invesigation of tham selfs fema homeland sucraty and the state goverment.
- meny dimacrats are refuing to jone a invetigation thay had no say in its creation.


the dimacrats are tring to start a bipartisan investigation of the goverment fema homeland sucraty and state liderships.

this is out of crontrole.

we need to have a independent investigation like the 911 commission.

just saw briefly the headline on the sun "300 police officers missing in new orlens!" - whats that about guys?

well meny of than have gon looking for thare family. some have just left. at lest 2 polesman have comited suiside.

is wers than somlea dawn thare.

one bit of good news thare puling less bodys out of the water than thay thot thay whood.

well, that's kind of good news. :hmmm:  

well thay just found a hospital with 44 bodys in it mostly older pepal in it.

i hope the deth count is low. thay are saying it probly will be in the thousinds.

may they all Rest In Peace :(  

holly ****!!! bush is taking reposability for some thing!!!

Bush Takes Responsibility for Blunders from yahoo news.

WASHINGTON - &nsbp; &nsbp; President Bush for the first time took responsibility Tuesday for federal government mistakes in dealing with Hurricane Katrina and suggested the calamity raised broader questions about the government's ability to handle both natural disasters and terror attacks.
 
"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at a joint White House news conference with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani.

"And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility. I want to know what went right and what went wrong," said Bush.

Facing sharp criticism and the lowest approval ratings of his presidency, Bush scheduled a speech to the nation from Louisiana for Thursday evening. It will be his fourth trip to the devastated Gulf Coast since the storm struck two weeks ago.

It was the closest Bush has come to publicly faulting any federal officials involved in the hurricane response, which has been widely criticized as disjointed and slow. Some federal officials have sought to blame state and local officials for being unprepared to cope with the disaster.


click for more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1569344,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1569344,00.html) old story has ben removed from yahoo - heres a simaler story on the (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sitecrumbs/Guardian.gif)

Holy **** this has nothing to do with helping any of the Katrina victims and just makes people who support bush angry, especially when nothing about Katrina is possibly his fault, cept for maybe hiring that idiot FEMA guy.

cutting femas funnding dawn and merging fema with homland sucraty is all so his falt. not lisaning to dier woring of just this sorta things haping that a consolting company came up with out line what what did hapin in detale.

i gess smaller goverment duss not work as well as some pepal thot serpising, not realy.

and it is serpising that he whood not see that this sorta thing mint hapin after cuting or redusing meny of the safe gards!

Consolidation of government agencies and departments is not good because our country is big and has a population of 300 million.

I must mention that this (the disaster cleanup) is what happens when we cut funds.  We pay taxes to Uncle Sam for good things like education, relief efforts, and many other things, yet our elected leaders cut funding and waste their time on payraises, pork projects (as in rainforests in Iowa BUT not bringing in money into West Virginia via Senator Byrd to fix roads), and all kinds of BS!  It seems that this BS has caused more death and destruction than what we could possibly imagine.  Near Pittsburgh, we had this BS when Hurricane Ivan flooded many people out, and people are SOL even to this day!

And thank you, ewm90, for mentioning the logic concerning the hurricane and the administration.

Of COURSE if you keep these 2 clearly alike entities seperate, we are going to pay more taxes, you yourself ewm went on and bitched about our deficit and wondered why the president didn't find more ways to fix the problem. That is quite hipicritical of you ewm.

Large governments = Taking longer to function, more people employed, less money for other things.

Hence, the only thing you can really blame any of this on is the weather, and maybe the Army corp of engineers for not reinforcing those levees later on.

Maybe if there were more programs, there wouldn't be so much mayhem.  And another thing: if legislators are willing to give themselves pay raises when allowed by Constitutional law, we, therefore, have the means to afford these programs WITHOUT raising one cent of tax money.  It is possible to afford what we have now, but the real problem is the politicians.  There's a clear line between politician and public servant, and we have more politicians than public servants.  I'm fully aware of the accusations that have been made (lack of action, racism, partisan politics, etc.), and any lie can have some truth in it.

This really has nothing to do with programs, what is needed and what has been delivered is helicopters, personel to do ground searches, MREs, fresh water, and transportation to refugee camps. Relocating an entire city in 2 weeks is not an easy task and I think our armed forces has done superbly considering everything thats happened.

Don't you think I know that?  It's a given.  What I was trying to emphasize was the issue of keeping programs like FEMA.

Isn't FEMA a Agency, hence the Federal Emergency Management Agency?

They didn't have funding.  They cannot do anything if the government won't give funding.  (sadly 40 years ago in that area  there was another hurricane and they tried to say  then that major fixes would be needed to levees).

no i dont wonder whare he can get more munny thare are several ways he can get more munny like roling back tax cuts for the rich or cuting some of that pock baril spinding he has going on such as bilding a bring up in alsica for 3 or 4 cars a day that i herd about resontly.

the dimacras idea of big goverment allso makes sher than welth is evinly shared from small guy to humugins guy.

 more pepal enpolyed meens for munny those pepal how are inpolyed have to paiy taix like evry one elss and a peron with a job meens less munny spint on uninpolment fether more that person must spind his or her muny making sher the aconnmy is strong. in the end thare is is just as munch munny avilibal from a gig goverment to a small goverment. the smaler goverment has less groth the biger govermeny has more.

naw you chaging it i thot you sed bush was bad for hiering the hed of fema. naw its no ones folt? no one told the army core of engineers to fix the levy or gave tham funnding to do so.

PREATOR DEFIANT
This really has nothing to do with programs, what is needed and what has been delivered is helicopters, personel to do ground searches, MREs, fresh water, and transportation to refugee camps. Relocating an entire city in 2 weeks is not an easy task and I think our armed forces has done superbly considering everything thats happened.

ewm90
i agry with the amry did a asom incrdabule job. ower leders did a cr*py pore job.

PREATOR DEFIANT
Isn't FEMA a Agency, hence the Federal Emergency Management Agency?

ewm90
sorta: thay are home land sucratys Emergency Management Agency.

You can technically blame everyone and also technically blame no one for the levees. President for not telling someone to fix it, FEMA for being kinda late on the rescuing, Corp of engineers for not informing anyone that the levees would break. Of course out of the 3, the democrats go for their favorite target, BUSH.

Big governments take much longer to pass laws, solve problems, get things done, cost alot more money, etc etc. Ours is too large as it is, I know how you democrats love your huge communist style governments where everyone is supposibly equal, but history shows us that failed badly.

fallow the bred croms and thay will leed to the person how droped tham and thay leed to bush. well if the presadent knows of a desater that cood very likly hapin it is his job to pervint it eny way he can. and he did not.


alot of repulicans are tageting bush to this is not just dimacrats tageting bush. the panal the dimacrats crated is run by a dimacrat and a republican.

well if the presadent can controle the buget he shood not be the presadent. ok naw your tolking crazy agin PD lets get back to reality pleace.
 

dude, with the best will in the world, you can't prevent a hurricane. maybe they could have taken better precautions for it, but it all comes down to the location. New Orleans is quite a bit below sea level, whatever precautions which WOULD have been there, probably wouldn't have done much when faced with that much flooding. & of course now you have the stubborn idiots there who just refuse to evacuate, even now :wacko: . i mean what personal posetions do they think they are gonna be able to recover when the flooding dies down? not exactly helping themselves are they?

Cpt Ryan i agree.

what i am saying is alot of the distrution cood have ben previnted by 1)upgrading the levys 2) makeing sher the goverment is perpared to helandal a werst case sunareo 3) make sher thares away to get evry one out safly or make sher thares a nuff care for tham.

some of the pepal how chose not to evacuate had resons whay thay did not wont to. one case that came to my atinchon was a latey how was blind and reliyed on her seing eye dog to gide her. she whood not evacuate with out her servis dog.

on the uther hands thare whare some pepal how did not wont to evcuate for eny nuber of of emoshanal probloms.

Well i'm sorry I realise the president can't control the weather. I mean seriously, how is this his fault? Everyone was rescued as soon as it was possible, the damage is being reversed, how is any of this possibly the presidents fault?

Exactly Ryan, you can't do much against a cat 5.

your mising the pont. i am not blaminh hime for the wether i am blaing him for not shoring up the levys, not heting help thare fast anuff, and for dawn grading fema and merging it with home land sucraty.

I'm quite sure he wasen't even informed of a levee situation, thats prolly pretty low on any list until recently. Help was there the next day, don't expect 10,000 rescue workers within 10 minutes ewm. FEMA did get everything done, even if very late because of the idiot at the helm.

thay gave him a cd and a breef about it. i sher it was in the PDB two it had two be.

i only expect the best from the comander and cheef. eny thing less is unexsetibal. i cleerly have a hiyer standered for exsalens for ower presadent than you do. i have such hiy standers be cuss i know thare are pepal out thare how can reach those levals.

bush chose that idiot and lowered his fundding and merged fema with homland sucraty.

Of course you have high expectations, but no one living or dead will ever reach them, unless their democratic :lol:  

john karry, clinton, john mican, mr finegold, and most presadents be for ragin and meny uthers.

john mican is not a dimacrat he is a conevative repulican and he is a war hero.

Ok, and what are you refering to?

He is referring to those who would attempt to reach those higher expectations that you think ewm90 hopes to be reached.

[ol type=\'i\'][li]pepal how will do things like not under cut funnding for needed projects or [/li][li]programes. [/li][li]pepal how will not get us in to wars with out a way out. [/li][li]pepal how polerize this contry. [/li][li]pepal how will not scroow the pore. [/li][li]pepal how will not ingnore pepal of color. [/li][li]some one whood kares about whons rights. [/li][li]some one how cares about ower servis man and woman. [/li][li]some one how will make a real efert to mend relations with the international comunity. [/li][li]some one how will take a hard line on polution. [/li][li]some one how will get us jobs back in the us.[/li][li]some one how respects religon but is not govered by it.[/li][li]some one how will respect the right to freedom and basic freedoms for americans.[/li][li]some one how will not loos site of whats makes america america.[/li][li]some one how will redusee pork barile spinding and larg tax cuts for the rich.[/li][/ol]thats a good small list to star.
 

And possible if we had 5 times the income we currently have, the middle east didn't exist, we used some sort of wonder fuel, didn't have any bigots in this country, and I think a few other things. Thank god someones a realist around here...

lol PD.

@ewm : (iii) there is always a way out of a war. you either win or lose it.
iv) whats "polerize"?
v)the dangers of living in a capitalist society im affraid, its the same in the UK
xiv) that depends on the individual, what do you think makes America, america?
xv) not trying to be an @ss but please translate that one for me.

Escuse me?  since when did they not inform people.  YEARS ago  the corp of engineers tried to tell people but it got pushed to the side  since nobody wanted to assign money.  Get your facts straight please.  I know for a fact that they DID make a report of it.  

I don't know much of whats going on there but  honestly  haphazard accusations won't help anything.

Well Aesir, apparently no one did anything about it and hence it was forgotten. If it was a long time ago it doesn't surprise me no one informed the proper officials when this hurricane came. No need to get all hardass on me there buddy.

yeah ok  well in 1960 there was another decent  hurricane in that area  and even then  they tried to say  the levees were lacking. so  government at its best   -_-

I herd a disterbing report about polution levals.

polution quite well have played a role in Katrina size and strinth. the waters are geting wormer and wormer. this cood meen biger hericans and more of tham more offin.

we need to get a presadent that cares alot about pultion or we mite loos more us citys.

Lol I never get tired of hearing that one, and somehow polution can get blamed on the president also. Oh thank you ewm, I needed that.

the presadent has removed pulison amisons pertection. and has increested ower use of fosoal fule. and has deforsitatisan. and meny uther things.
 

again politics thread and not going about a tornado. besides, pullution is something the people can change nota president. i mean follow the governator he is doing something for pollotion. Instead his SUV doing 1 gallon per mile with his car like all americans, he has a hybrid card with hydrogen fuel and now does 1 gallon per 2 miles. :lol:  almost every american rides a very ineffecient  car that pollutes like ****.

but pollution isn't a cause of hurricanes. the carebean is a place that  is haunted by hurricanes around this period.  same with tornado alley and the east side of china. if that was the cause of pollution then even before there where big industries and cars, there would have been socalled pollution in the water or air. besides i gues tornado alley must be the most poluted part of the world then because they have alot of tornado's. If there wasn't pollutions there would still be tornado's and earthquakes and floods, it is a NATURAL PHENOMENOM.

All this states is the way your linear mind works, everytime there is a major disaster happened whether in america or indonesia or in the US. Where the US is involved, you pin every mistake on the president. ofcourse there are always screw ups during those things. no rescue plan for disaster is full proof because you can't  not simmulate and prepair for everything. Besides it isn't only the presidesnt fault people knew in orleans that if there was a big hurricane or flood that Orleans would be flooded for weeks but people where ignorent to do anything about it because we all think it won't happen to me. Look at San fransisco. it has a major fault line and it is predicted that there will be such a major earthquake there that  it will be a disaster site just like orleans but you don't see people not wanting to live there, they just go build there house without insurance or quake protection. Who want to live in tornado alley without propper shelters? most people don't have them and that is why there are alot of deaths  there but people still want to live there.

so anyway i am sure ewm has something to dissaprove my ideas or find something else to talk about. but anyway if there was a democratic president on the seat this term instead of Bush, he would be in the same ****** position because they wheren't prepaired. Orlando would still be underwater. he couldn't use his magic wand and save orlando in one term not even in 2. unless you are psychic.

this is the  Katrina thred will toy stop calling it names roch!

1) hybridos dont work that well.

2) pollution duss not cose herican worm water duss and pution worms water.

3) you dont have a nuff facts. and you are mixing you what i was saying.

the 60s huh? well i'm sure thats got to the top of the agenda by now  :lol:
hey i don't exactly like Bush either but even i can concede that he couldn't have done anything about the Levees in the 60s. surely if your gonna go on that you should blame EVERY other President who has been in office since that time, not just Bush (Jnr).


 

well bush had a detaled simalation that out lined the probloms costed in new orleans in detal. this incooded a breef and a cd simulation of what hapind in new orleans be for Katrina. and meny uther organations have wonred about the probloms with the levys. so what duss bush do cuts funding to fema repases its hed guy with a hed case and merges it with homland sucraty degrating feama evin more.

be for Katrina bush has a nuff time to get resores in plase and start pusioning aid workers and socraty. he did not do enuff thing that he shood have dun in prep for the strom. or after it took him 5 days to get food in to the city and sucraty. thare wher milatry resors that wher not called on investigated post storm.

you said it yourself. don't twist my words on something  and i don't think because of the devastation of  Orlando you can blame it on pollution because loads of F5 are born over oceans but usually dies out over oceans aswell.  and for a hurricane you need warm and cool winds not water. And i have enough facts and common sense to do live near an potential disaster area or atleast be prepaired for it.

because bad things happen but the only thing you are good at is pointing it at a president who couldn't stop that disaster anyway. Can you cope that in your minds utopian world idea? because that is fantasy. it would be ideal but just ins't possible


 

yes it made the water wormer strintaning Katrina.

you need to do some resherch on haw pution efects timpacher of the earth. thares a reson why its called golbal worming or the green house efect.

There is scientific proof that the burning of fossil fuels can cause global warming.  Aside from hurricanes, large chunks of glacial ice are being formed about the size of Rhode Island.  For a chunk of ice, that's massive!  I do agree that other presidents from LBJ to now are responsible for the neglect of the levees.  Even Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton are to be held accountable for doing nothing.

EWM read my post  without pollution hurricanes still existed and this hurricane wasn't any different because it is common this time of year that they arrive around florida and new orleans so it isn't a cause of pollution. maybe the frequency of hurricanes can be a cause of global warming but there isn't proof that there is a direct like to the amount of hurricanes and they way we warm up the earth. So you cannot approve that theory or dissaprove unless you are GOD. the only thing the scientists can be certain is  that we are warming up the earth, the rest is theory.

so it had nothing to do with katrina. otherwise i could have blamed El Nino of being a sign of global warming but that is also a natural event. and you can't hold several presidents for account because how much do you recycle and do you use other transportation then your car to go do the groceries. basically we are lazy as it comes to saving the earth because i know i could recycle 90 of my waste but basically nobody does it. even if there are facilities for them.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/29/145206 (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/29/145206) -american

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/08/...a/index_np.html (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/08/30/katrina/index_np.html) - american

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,372179,00.html (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372179,00.html) - germon

Tropical storms may be growing in overall intensity due to human-induced global warming, according to a new study by leading hurricane researcher Kerry Emanuel. His report, which has generated controversy among climate specialists, was published earlier this month in the journal Nature. Emanuel looked comprehensively at storm data since the mid-1970s and concluded that the destructive power of hurricanes has nearly doubled over the past three decades at least partially because of human-induced global warming. Critics of the study say hurricanes are not intensifying and that the cause of the rising ocean temperature is natural, not human-made.

so in other words only a theory and only a slight in crease not just creating F5 hurricanes from F1 and read the last line


It's made many wonder if global warming is bringing the wrath of the planet down upon all our heads. Kerry Emanuel, a professor of atmospheric science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who has studied historical records of hurricanes around the globe, said the answer is yes and no.

so not the cause of pollution directly.

and the german one is very one sided but basically it only states only about global woraming and the effects not that katrina is an example of global warming and you keep forgetting that the carebean and the mexican gold is a tornado rich area and each year is different and varies from intensity. and it was already predicted that there would be such an event sometime in the future so i don't know what makes it an indication that it might be a signal of global warning
 

The Süddeutsche Zeitung uses its feature page as a defacto editorial by focusing on the hurricane as its theme of the day. Among its articles, it cites a study by US hurricane expert Kerry Emanuel of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology that shows a rising tendency for hurricanes that exactly reflects the curve of greenhouse gases. German scientists from the Max-Planck Institute hail the study as the first proof of a real link. "If this man-made warming continues, we will have to expect stronger storms in future" Emmanuel tells the paper.

and i have herd redio news reports that have sed that polition may have made Katrina biger. in the redio new report i herd thay all so sited the amont of hericans we have had her as a resont to pution. fether more thay woned this trind will continuwe. - the news report was from a local sinintist.

you have to under stand thare is a lot of syintests that are fileder paiyed off or intimadated not to report the reality of pultion.

he might of had a detailed simulation of the out lined problems, but does it come up in day to day bases, i am sure theres that job around your house that needs doing, but theres other more pressing matters (9/11 war on iraq, war on terror, election).


edit: does anyone else think this is fast becoming a political and blame thread?

I just think opinions of a few are not proof of your side.   one side  says   man is to blame  the other says  not.  neither side really has proof  so at the moment its not a good point to base an argument on.

i just find it weird to blame a NATURAL disaster to some twisted way to something the government could have prevented by doing the kyoto thing.  I wonder what kind of pollution you need to start an earthquacke then. I it like looking for some kind of weair d reason to find a logical answer on blaming a the cause of such a naturual event on someone.  

o every body knows all you need to start an earth quake is the by product of turning lead into gold!!!

nope, the lawn it moved plants are water and the walk has all redy ben swepted up.

it is bush #1 job to pretect this contery. if he can not do that he was not business mesing in uther contrys.

it is we need to get back on topic...

Aesir he is the comander and cheef the buck stops with him.

[TD]Roach i dont under stand no one is blaming the NATURAL disaster?

yeah but its  incredibly hard to sell sending money BEFORE a problem comes to term to the public you should know.  That and  politicians are mostly concerned with the short term of getting reelected and not about the long term unless of course a big enough fuss is raised about it.

yes it is hard but thats his job and if he cant do it he shood not be the comander and cheef.

thats trow about polatishons but some are more compadent than uthers.

i hope this mess from Katrina is not sweept under the rug as just a nuther harbal sichation.

Now ewm, presidents can't control the weather, so stop saying this one can. Stop giving that pollution nonsense stuff also.

good point, and this thread is starting to sound like a blame thread, eventhough i'm fine with burning bush for any reason what so ever,  maliciously fictitious or not

You think he also controls the weather too lol?

quote thing didn't show up. lol

i am not PD. i sed that poltion had a afect on the herican. i dont no whare you are geting that i am blaming him for the herican its self?

Aesir well lets see he was on a 3 week vatishon that i paiyed for, he did verly lital be for the storm to pertect humin life, he did not mobalise fishacl resores army aqipant, he cood have givein the mayer some sogers to dive the buss to get pepal out of the city, and much more.

Eufnoc he had like 8 days till he got his act to gether from when thare was a risk that a f4 or 5 mite hit lowesana to when the sogers got thare.

thare is nuthing more inportent that pertecting america.

You've been blaming the president for a week now that he was somehow responsible for the hurricane. Polution has no effect on it...

Few could have forseen what happened. It was tragic but things were mobilized awfully quick. I woke up and saw the national guard and helicopters flying around picking people up the next day. How much faster do you expect the military to get in there? You can't fly helicopters through a hurricane.

no i am blaing him for his pore respons to the herican crises.

thats not what i herd.

my god we had 2 or 3 days be for it hi and we had a deetaled simulation of what hapined a blind man cood see it.

nu but you can get the helacopters thare be for the herican hits and tiy tham dawn away from dubrey or things that mite hert tham.

LOL that would be so funny to 'tie down' all those helicopters and watch stuff hit them all because ewm thought it would be a good idea. Those helicopters were there next day, the same time the hurricane ended, how much sooner do you think they could have gone up? Had they any sooner and you'd have hundreds more dead and helicopters crashed everywhere.

and isn't it common knowledge that any hurricane that hits New Orleans is going to wipe it out, same with New York too. The fact that the city is under sea-level, and the shape of the coast, and the fact that the normal weather patterns for that part of the country would make the devastation even more massive. I would have evacuated New Orleans the second that they told me a hurricane was even near there, that is if I was in charge.  

Which they did...but that doesn't mean everyones going to leave even if you make an evacuation...do you people even know what happened?

no, not really, i don't trust the news media, so i don't watch it.

thats why you get tham away from bilding and tres maby a feeld or someing or neer by. the hericand was 100 miles wide if i remiber crecly evin if we had mobulised the helacopertes 100 miles away we whood be abule to get thare in amater of hawers.

but the wind would have flung those choppers around like a rag doll, and you'd have a lot more dead people, and most of your choppers would be junked.


it's not the trees or the junk flying around (well that is part of it), it's the wind from the hurricane, nothing can fly safely in it.

not if you sucrer tham well. i have seen army helacopters sucred. thay tiy dawn ech blad and put a tarp over the hole thing. if you lets say bolted the layeding bars to the grawnd with medal clasps and sucred the tarp by seeling up all gaps whare air cood get thow thay whood have a chage of making it thow the sorm.

or evin have the helacopter fliy above the strom un till it pass.


if reporters can get in just after the strom left than the army shood be abule two.

ewm, do you know that if you have a F5 hurrican, a simple wooden plank can boreitself through a brick wall? imagine what would happen with the choppers

a brick wall is flat and offers lots of wind resintands. with a tarp over the coper in the right way it whood minamise wind resintents.

that stil duss not adress the fact the meda got thare in recered time with helacopters.

yes ofcourse a tarp, d'oh. gives much better protection from debris then a wall

as i have sed 2x be for put tham dawn some wher wher thare is less chages of dubree. its army aqupmant its made to take a beating. if thares a will thares a way.

a nuther trpical storm "Rita" that is due to tern in to a mager herican is heded some wher be tween new orleens and texsis.

(http://image.weather.com/images/maps/tropical/map_tropprjpath18_fcst_5nhato_enus_600x405.jpg)
weather.com

Or what they could have done and they did, was have them in the general area, and once the storm passed they flew the extra 10 minutes to get there instead of letting their choppers get pulled apart in the storm.

Yeah Rita may screw everything right back up, **** Bush and his weather machine!

hey PD you must think i am as hard line as thay come. you are misstakin if thats the case..

as you can see i am no wher neer the werst cridic:

"To the victor goes the spoils" or "Here we goagain"
"To thevictor goes the spoils" or "Here we go again"

Firms with Bush ties snag Katrina deals


Saturday September 10, 11:03 AM EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Companies with ties to the Bush White House and theformer
head of FEMA are clinching some of the administration's first disasterrelief and
reconstruction contracts in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

At least two major corporate clients of lobbyist Joe Allbaugh, President
GeorgeW. Bush's former campaign manager and a former head of the Federal
EmergencyManagement Agency, have already been tapped to start recovery work
along thebattered Gulf Coast.

One is Shaw Group Inc. (SGR) and the other is Halliburton Co. (HAL)
subsidiaryKellogg Brown and Root. Vice President **** Cheney is a former head
ofHalliburton.

Bechtel National Inc., a unit of San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp., has alsobeen
selected by FEMA to provide short-term housing for people displaced by
thehurricane. Bush named Bechtel's CEO to his Export Council and put the
formerCEO of Bechtel Energy in charge of the Overseas Private Investment
Corporation.

Experts say it has been common practice in both Republican and
Democraticadministrations for policy makers to take lobbying jobs once they
leave office,and many of the same companies seeking contracts in the wake of
HurricaneKatrina have already received billions of dollars for work in Iraq.

Halliburton alone has earned more than $9 billion. Pentagon audits released
byDemocrats in June showed $1.03 billion in "questioned" costs and $422million
in "unsupported" costs for Halliburton's work in </span></font><font   size=1
face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Iraq</span></font><font size=1
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>.

But the web of Bush administration connections is attracting renewed
attentionfrom watchdog groups in the post-Katrina reconstruction rush. Congress
hasalready appropriated more than $60 billion in emergency funding as a
downpayment on recovery efforts projected to cost well over $100 billion.

"The government has got to stop stacking senior positions with people whoare
repeatedly cashing in on the public trust in order to further privatecommercial
interests," said Danielle Brian, executive director of theProject on Government
Oversight.

TWO BUSH APPOINTEES AT HALLIBURTON

Allbaugh formally registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton subsidiary
KelloggBrown and Root in February.

In lobbying disclosure forms filed with the Senate, Allbaugh said his goal wasto
"educate the congressional and executive branch on defense, disasterrelief and
homeland security issues affecting Kellogg Brown and Root."

Melissa Norcross, a Halliburton spokeswoman, said Allbaugh has not, since hewas
hired, "consulted on any specific contracts that the company isconsidering
pursuing, nor has he been tasked by the company with any
lobbyingresponsibilities."

Allbaugh is also a friend of Michael Brown, director of FEMA who was removed
ashead of Katrina disaster relief and sent back to Washington amidallegations he
had padded his resume.

A few months after Allbaugh was hired by Halliburton, the company
retainedanother high-level Bush appointee, Kirk Van Tine.

Van Tine registered as a lobbyist for Halliburton six months after resigning
asdeputy transportation secretary, a position he held from December 2003
toDecember 2004.

On Friday, Kellogg Brown & Root received $29.8 million in Pentagoncontracts to
begin rebuilding Navy bases in Louisiana and Mississippi.Norcross said the work
was covered under a contract that the company negotiatedbefore Allbaugh was
hired.

Halliburton continues to be a source of income for Cheney, who served as
itschief executive officer from 1995 until 2000 when he joined the
Republicanticket for the White House. According to tax filings released in
April, Cheney'sincome included $194,852 in deferred pay from the company, which
has also wonbillion-dollar government contracts in Iraq.

Cheney's office said the amount of deferred compensation is fixed and is
notaffected by Halliburton's current economic performance or earnings.

Allbaugh's other major client, Baton Rouge-based Shaw Group, has updated itsWeb
site to say: "Hurricane Recovery Projects -- Apply Here!"

Shaw said on Thursday it has received a $100 million emergency FEMA contractfor
housing management and construction. Shaw also clinched a $100 millionorder on
Friday from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

Shaw Group spokesman Chris Sammons said Allbaugh was providing the company
with"general consulting on business matters," and would not say whetherhe played
a direct role in any of the Katrina deals. "We don't comment onspecific
consulting activities," he said.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you look at the facts of what realy hapined and what cood have ben dun you will see a huge difrants. when you dig ddeeper you will see its be cuss of destions that wher made by G,W,Bush to lower fema and cut funding to uther needed programs. not to micichon he had to srambal o get the needed troops to gether to help in the desater. its hard to get things working when you are on a 3 week vastion.

I'm not gonna pretend I wasted my time reading that because I didn't, but i'm sure it's full of technicalities you took advantage of. Meh back to gaming!

i took advateg of no one i am just repoting that i fawnd.

haw can you just ignore some thing with out whating to look it up to see if its truw?

if it was me and i fawnd some thing disterbing like that about my partty i whood wont to know if it was truw. aspehsal after all the critasisom it has gotin. ignoring information and trusting some thing with out information about it is blind fath.

i meen at this pont both dimacrats and repulicans are unitted in thare citasisom of the presadent as that pont duss it have to get be for you start to think maby thares some thing rong here. hiss poll nubers have droped, the wars not going well, oil prices have skiy rockeded, he had  huge and historic protests aginsted him, the international comunity is not happy with him, a lorge amont of black pepal think he is rolling back time, and he has yet to admit eny real mistake.

after this Katrina thing if it was me i whood be asking lotes of quechons this Katrina herican was haribal but his respose after it was unexspibal and unfergivabule.

i have come across two pepal from new orleens so far one i work with hows famaly was in neworleens dering the herican and one at the buss stop last week how famaly was also in the herican both did not loos eny one thankfuly. i feel sick when i think of haw week can just leev pepal to die be cuss thare is no help for tham in the strongest contry in the warld.

heh i have alwas seen you as a hardliner, unwilling to change his views even if the word chaned around him

i am a midal man if you will. between hardliner and moderit.

thare are pepal i call crasys that are extreen left weingers. thay are basicly anericsts.

the repulican vertion of a hard liner is an evagelical repulican. PD is all so a midal man between herdliners and and miderits.

if you are a middle man then shouldn't you be moderit as you calll it? instead of being the middle man between moderit and hardliner.

But have to agree with eufnoc, i thought you where a hardliner and i think most people on the forum think so  

[TD]Roach
i never sed i was modrit..

well most pepal on the forum are new to polatics.

we need to get back in topic and get off polatics.

let me state it very simple. you have laid back, moderate and hardliner but you are stating you are between moderate and hardliner. that is right  from the center in my book...

but never mind

i hear the new orlenas is going to be hit by a storm surge from Rita?

well yes and no, rita is heading towards texas and is hitting florida ther is a small chance in hitting Orleans but  it is a precaution because they don't want to blunder twice

lol they don't want to bluner twice i have two words to reply with "Gulf War"

yeah lol but the citizens of irak couldn't vote no for bush Orleans can

this out lines the frustrations felt by meny dimacrats. this is an e-maill that was forwarded to me.

Friday, September 2nd, 2005 Dear Mr. Bush: Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag. Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with? Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her! I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike? And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ! On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that. There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland. No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this! You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit. Yours, Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.
 

Somehow michael moore always finds a way to throw iraq into things. He even got the puppet sheehan in too. Anyway I guess I am a hardliner although I do try to keep an open mind. Ewm is also a hardliner, calling either of us moderate would be stretching it.

well he has good reson two. the iraq war cast 200 billion dollars. gess what elss cost that much rebilding the golf cost bush sed.

o boy PD if you think i am the hardest critic your livin under a rock thay get alot wors than me alot wers.

i keep and opined mind two PD and my opined mind disagress with your opined mind some thines.

____________________________________________________________

i was going to post that the levys that Katrina broke wher brokin agin by rita.

(http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/homepage/hp9-23-05h.jpg)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5092301437.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com)

Floodwaters Pour Into New Orleans Again
Katrina-Weakened Levees Fail in Two Places Today

By Ceci Connolly and William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 23, 2005; 5:42 PM

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 23 -- Floodwaters poured into an already devastated district of New Orleans Friday as Hurricane Rita's outer bands began lashing the city, and its protective levees failed in at least two places.

With water overflowing repaired levees or pouring through gaps in them, the Army Corps of Engineers was locked in a battle to contain the flooding.

click for more http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5092301437.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com)

Of course wars cost money, but it was for a good cause, no regrets here. Of course you and your hardlined democrat friends don't see liberation of 25 million people a worthy cause.

Oh I know there are worse democrats, but you are truely one of the worse i've seen. Few match your constant CONSTANT bush bashing.

its looking more and more like a sival war. and i have still to be shown evadens that helping the iraqy pepal was the mane reson thay whet in or evin a real reson.
about being hard like at least i dont go to anti gobalastation meadings or go to meny protests or hate repulicans. i do buleev in having a strong milatry and do think fores in nesasery some times. and meny more things that cleerly makes me not a hard lined.

i can name repulicans i like in offise to day can you name dimacrats that are in offise that you like...

most dimacrats protest bush opindly PD and meny repulans do two naw.

but lets get back to Katrina or Rita. i whood like to keep Rita in this tread i dont think a nuther whood do eny good one thread is all we nead.

so shall we rename this the poltical thread 3?

its geting thare unfochintly. this tred is for Katrina an Rita keep this.

With the way things seem to be, coastal areas in Texas will most likely get screwed the same way New Orleans and other places got screwed.

its not looking as bad as new orleens but this storm is keeping a good strnth (cad 3 with 100+ wends) as it movies in land.

so much for looking for bodiys in Katrina for naw. the bodiy sher must hold for a few more weeks un till new orleens is draned. body dont last long in water.

yester day a woman from from new orleens came to the place i work looking for a job. this is such a heribal sihation pepal are in.

just sawthe news is a catogry 1 and nost places are ok, new orleans was hit hard again though (anyone here about the old folks bus that went boom?)

I heard about that bus.  Most tragic.

i herd that one of the mager oil pipe lined the bigest one was damged by rita the pipe line caryed 1/2 of us oil it must be closed for repares.

this will dive the all ready recered braking oil prises hiyer much hiyer.

**** bush for making that storm with his weather machine!

o stop you crasy tolk PD. no one is blaing eny one for making that storm.

Except for everyone who thinks that pollution somehow leads to hurricanes. And you for some reason or another think it's bush's fault.

you know those 2 hurricanes is nothing compared to what is happening in china. It is hit 12 times by hurricanes/typhoons with the smae strength so why worry about US so much. but anyway Hurricane is over in the US so we can stop this discussion hopefully (unless anotherone is comming).

bush did pull out of the keoto acoreds increes pultion. and naw thare is strong evadents that hericans are made stronger by pution.

as i sed NOT ONE MADE THES HERICANS. what i am saying is alot of pepal have helped make the water wormer in the golf by puting. hericans are made stronger by worm woter.

if we dont stop puloting like we are, hericans not maby WILL GET EVIN WERS.

thare are meny facts leeding up to this concution and its not just be saying it.

Katrina and rita is just the start if we continue dawn this path.

Lol I think thats mainly an assumption, we were having hurricanes of this magnitude long long ago, do you know of galviston? If Bush keeps using his weather machine then maybe he can kill some more Democrats!

thare is a new study out that links polution and golbal worming to hericans size and strith.

and i have seen doumantys on nova that have hinted in the past at the link.

this new evadens is proof that hericans size and strith is related to polutin/golabl worming.

on a radio intervowe with alocal sintest whent ferther to say thay Katrina was made stronger by the womer water in the golf cosded by pution.


thes hericans are hot hiting two meny dimacrats he is hiting repulicans both the stats that had the biest damge by Katrina and Rita wher RED states.

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i herd on cnn the lavys in new orleens mite not have clapsted be cuss thay wher over toped like bush sed thay where. thare is growing evadents that the levalys mite have ben desined porely.
 

do you even know how much heat you need to put in to warm the gulf of mexico? it is very minimal. even if there are large caps of ice meltes way from both poles. it would rather cool down then warm up. besides with the pollution we are having in the air right now, there isn't even enough energy to warm water with 1 degree. (it is like boiling one part of water in a glass with a lamp.)and you do know that you need warm and cold winds to produce a hurricane and not warm and cold water.


because it is very narrow minded if you think just because katrina had so much deaths that this hurricane was produced by pollution because of its magnitude. that is just ouragous. Taiwan is hit by Typhoons and hurricanes alot this month aswell with the same magnitude. you don't see them pointing fingers at pollution.

btw wwasn't you who told us in the politics thread that CNN was owned by the republics so their news wheren't that objective?

besides their dykes where all fine but they didn't have any flood planes to move the water another direction so the amount of water that was pushed on the dykes where too much to handle

but PD, ewm is very good in totally ignoring the facts or missing the point so why bother?

True true roach, and no I don't know why I bother...I just love arguments :D  Ewm inadvertanly gives me my fix.

[TD]Roach
well acorinding to sintitests the golf and the rest of the world has wormed one dugree all ready.

ashaly thats not trow it whoods flud and drawn places like new oleens and other playes at or below sea leval all over the world. the ice whood not cool the water.

achaly it is and it has wormed one dugree all ready.

global worming is realy compalicated you can comapre it to a glass water if it was that simpal pepal whood not be woryed about it and suding it.

boy you need to paiy atinchon in clas man you facts are so off.



the only reson i think that is be cuss naromined sintested how have dun exstisive resherch have a link.

no cnn is owned by aol.

i dont understand your comint about the dikes

exsuse me i look up and resher my facts you shood triy iy some time.

And ewm says the same stuff he said before adding nothing new...surprise surprise.

the reson i dont chage what i sed is be cuss its the troth and the troth duss not chage.

The strongest hurricanes in the present climate may be upstaged by even more intense hurricanes over the next century as the earth's climate is warmed by increasing levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Although we cannot say at present whether more or fewer hurricane will occur in the future with global warming, the hurricanes that do occur near the end of the 21st century are expected to be stronger and have significantly more intense rainfall than under present day climate conditions. This expectation (Figure 1) is based on an anticipated enhancement of energy available to the storms due to higher tropical sea surface temperatures.

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk/glob_warm_hurr.html (http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk/glob_warm_hurr.html)

Scientists see if global warming causes hurricanes
 
   
VIDEO
CNN's Natalie Pawelski looks at hurricanes and global warming
 
Windows Media 28K 80K
 

September 17, 1999
Web posted at: 5:06 p.m. EDT (2106 GMT)


(CNN) -- Hurricanes are born in the tropics for a reason: warm water is their fuel.

So some researchers are looking into whether a warmer Earth could bring stronger tropical storms with higher winds and more destruction.

"Certainly, if we warm up the atmosphere that's gonna have effects on the current weather patterns," said John St. John, a research scientist at the Georgia Institute of Technology.

"But our ability to model these is limited by what we understand."

Scientists say that so far, hurricane history provides no evidence of any connection between global warming and hurricanes.

"As recently as four or five years ago, we had a very active season with strong hurricanes -- 1995," said Edward Rappaport of the National Hurricane Center.

"Just two years later though was a very quiet year. Now we're back at an active year. It's hard to pinpoint a relationship between that and global warming, at least at this point."

 
It is predicted that future hurricanes could be up to 20 percent stronger than today's&nbsp;&nsbp;&nbsp;&nsbp;
 
Looking into the next century, one study projected future hurricanes up to 20 percent stronger than today's.

But many researchers believe other factors -- including La Nina and other big weather systems -- will overpower any effect global warming might have.

Most climate scientists say that Earth does seem to be heating up.

They think carbon dioxide and other so-called greenhouse gases form an atmospheric blanket that is warming the Earth.

Researchers caution that one has to consider questions of climate change over decades, even centuries.

One weather event, like a strong hurricane or a rough hurricane season, cannot alone be blamed on global warming.

CNN Correspondent Natalie Pawelski contributed to this report

http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9909/17/floyd.global.warming/ (http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9909/17/floyd.global.warming/)

Is Global Warming Making Hurricanes Worse?

John Roach
for National Geographic News

August 4, 2005
Hurricanes bring winds and slashing rains that flood streets, flatten homes, and leave survivors struggling to pick up the pieces. But has global warming given the storms an added punch, making the aftereffects more dreadful?

According to hurricane historian Jay Barnes of Pine Knoll Shores, North Carolina, ocean heat is the key ingredient for hurricane formation. More heat could "generate more storms and more intense hurricanes," he said.


Numerous studies in recent years have found no evidence that the number of hurricanes and their northwest Pacific Ocean cousins, typhoons, is increasing because of the rise in global temperatures.

But a new study in the journal Nature found that hurricanes and typhoons have become stronger and longer-lasting over the past 30 years. These upswings correlate with a rise in sea surface temperatures.

The duration and strength of hurricanes have increased by about 50 percent over the last three decades, according to study author Kerry Emanuel, a professor of atmospheric science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge.

Emanuel's finding defies existing models for measuring storm strength. Current models suggest that the intensity of hurricanes and typhoons should increase by 5 percent for every 1ºC (1.8ºF) rise in sea surface temperature.

"We've had half a degree [Celsius] of warming, so that should have led to a 2.5 percent increase [in intensity], which is probably not detectable," Emanuel said. "What we've seen is somewhat bigger than that, and we don't really know why."

One possibility, Emanuel said, is that ocean temperatures may be increasing more quickly than atmospheric temperatures.

"When that happens we've shown theoretically you get an increase in the intensity of hurricanes," he said.

Anatomy of a Hurricane

According to Barnes, who has authored several books on U.S. hurricane history, the physics of hurricanes are complex and full of variables. "But the sun beating down on Earth is the primary thing that gets it going," he said.

Barnes explains in his book North Carolina's Hurricane History that the summer heat warms the ocean's surface and spurs evaporation. As heat and moisture rise into the atmosphere, billowing clouds, scattered showers, and thunderstorms form.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...anewarming.html (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0804_050804_hurricanewarming.html)

 global warming making hurricanes more ferocious? New research suggests the answer is yes. Scientists call the findings both surprising and "alarming'' because they suggest global warming is influencing storms now -- rather than in the distant future.

However, the research doesn't suggest global warming is generating more hurricanes and typhoons.

The analysis by climatologist Kerry Emanuel of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology shows for the first time that major storms spinning in both the Atlantic and the Pacific since the 1970s have increased in duration and intensity by about 50 percent.

These trends are closely linked to increases in the average temperatures of the ocean surface and also correspond to increases in global average atmospheric temperatures during the same period.

"When I look at these results at face value, they are rather alarming,'' said research meteorologist Tom Knutson. "These are very big changes.''

Knutson, who wasn't involved in the study, works in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton, N.J.

Emanuel reached his conclusions by analyzing data collected from actual storms rather than using computer models to predict future storm behavior.

Before this study, most researchers believed global warming's contribution to powerful hurricanes was too slight to accurately measure. Most forecasts don't have climate change making a real difference in tropical storms until 2050 or later.

But some scientists questioned Emanuel's methods. For example, the MIT researcher did not consider wind speed information from some powerful storms in the 1950s and 1960s because the details of those storms are inconsistent.

Researchers are using new methods to analyze those storms and others going back as far as 1851. If early storms turn out to be more powerful than originally thought, Emmanuel's findings on global warming's influence on recent tropical storms might not hold up, they said.

"I'm not convinced that it's happening,'' said Christopher W. Landsea, another research meteorologist with NOAA, who works at a different lab, the Atlantic Oceanographic & Meteorological Laboratory in Miami. Landsea is a director of the historical hurricane reanalysis.

"His conclusions are contingent on a very large bias removal that is large or larger than the global warming signal itself,'' Landsea said.

Details of Emanuel's study appear Sunday in the online version of the journal Nature.

Theories and computer simulations indicate that global warming should generate an increase in storm intensity, in part because warmer temperatures would heat up the surface of the oceans. Especially in the Atlantic and Caribbean basins, pools of warming seawater provide energy for storms as they swirl and grow over the open oceans.

Emanuel analyzed records of storm measurements made by aircraft and satellites since the 1950s. He found the amount of energy released in these storms in both the North Atlantic and the North Pacific oceans has increased, especially since the mid-1970s.

In the Atlantic, the sea surface temperatures show a pronounced upward trend. The same is true in the North Pacific, though the data there is more variable, he said.

"This is the first time I have been convinced we are seeing a signal in the actual hurr