Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations

The new season is definitely coming along better than the last one - and I agree - it's because the "screwing with the timeline and boring the audience to death" campaign is over!  Now Brent Spiner's on the show - this should be interesting!  He died as Data in 2381 (Nemesis) and came back 226 years earlier as a mad doctor - wow - maybe the whole timeline thing isn't over!  :P

The whole problem I have with the time travel thing is based on the infamous "Grandfather Hypothesis" - which says, "if you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you will not exist - ever."  Well, let's analyze that for a moment - shall we?  If you killed your grandfather, you wouldn't exist - that's correct.  But, since you didn't exist, you would not have traveled back in time and killed your grandfather - making sense now?  You see, turning back time like that is just insane - it ends up with repeat after repeat of the same thing happening over and over again.  Now, it's true, someone else can go back in time and kill your grandfather and then you wouldn't exist, but it wouldn't matter if you weren't the person who went back in time to kill your grandfather - so maybe that could alter the timeline.  But if a person kills their own line before they were born, then it would have never even happened.  And if time travel does ever become possible, then if you go back in time and screw with the past too much, you could always kill someone in your gene-line (considering you traveled to a time before you were born) and that would make it as if it never happened, since you would never have existed to go back in time in the first place.  Now if you go back in time to a past where you were already born (like, say, 20 years), and if you screw up the timeline in such a way as to cause a catastrophe in the future, you could reverse it by killing your past self (then you wouldn't have existed to change time in the first place).  There's always a way around time travel.

As a law, I state that travel through time in the future is possible - if you go very very fast, you can go into the future (going at light speed to Alpha Centauri would take you there in 4.3 years, and then coming back it would total 8.6 years - when you get back home, everyone would have aged 8.6 years - going light speed will take you there instantly - because according to the laws of relativity, anything that travels at light speed is travelling everywhere in the universe at once - to the person inside the ship going light speed).  To people on Earth, observing an object going the speed of light, the object moves at 300,000 kilometers per second - definitely not covering every part of the universe.  But to the person on the ship, time does not exist if you're going light speed.  I have found a direct correlation between time, energy, and motion - all three are results of each other.  Matter does not exist without energy (because matter can become energy and energy can become matter).  Time is a manifestation of energy - motion is a manifestation of energy.  Existence is a manifestation of motion.  Time is the unverse's way of not making everything happen at the same time, or not making anything happen ever.  That said, if time doesn't exist to the person going light speed, then energy doesn't exist (the amount of energy it takes to go light speed in our dimension is infinite - and if you get to that point, energy as a value is undefined and is in flux between existance and non-existance, meaning something going that speed can exist and at the same time disappear completely - since time becomes useless, energy and motion become useless - the bounds of the universe are 0 - that's why one would cover the entire universe at that speed (in this dimension of normal space).

Apparently, going faster than the speed of light has yet another affect - reversal of time - going back in time.  To do so would violate every single rule of physics you could think of - reverse time (not to be confused with anti-time) means reverse existence, if energy and time are directly correlated.  Doing something like that would either put the person travelling back in time out of existence or do something wierd to the universe or the space-time continuum.

Now - this is how Trek can get away with these apparent violations of space-time.  And it isn't science fiction anymore, since it has been MATHEMATICALLY proved that hyperspace exists, and it is just another dimension of our universe.  Hyperspace, or subspace, is a way for ships to go at or faster than the speed of light, as subspace is a portal into a sub-dimension that connects two points in the universe - the more energy your ship has available, the further apart these points are and the "faster" you go.  But the ship is not going "faster" - faster would indicate it is traversing distance in our dimension, something that's only possible at sub-light speeds.  Instead, the ship is moving through another dimension (or the dimension is moving the ship along - either way, it's pretty much the same effect).  This is possible.  Now how can this tie in with time?  I'm not saying it isn't possible - it is just something that is foolish to do (and that's where some of the more interesting time-travel plots come from - like Back to the Future).  I'm glad I mentioned Back to the Future because there was an explaination of different realities - going back in time and changing the timeline produces a new reality - one based on the new changes in the timeline (in fact, the other timeline that is unchanged still exists).  If this were true, it may be a way around the great paradox that is travelling back in time.  In a way, it would seem logical - going back in time like that is pretty much like creating a new universe - and the universe's way of sorting through all that is to create another reality based on new changes in the timeline.  If this were true, then maybe all this b.s. that is Enterprise's third season could be possible - they did get back to their normal timeline eventually and circumvented a catastrophe of not only biblical propertions, but temporal proportions (apparently, that's even worse than biblical).

I think in the end what I was complaining about with Enterprise's "timeline stuff" is that it was totally confusing and I just couldn't keep track of what was happening from episode to episode.  Thank God in the end, I was able to understand it all.  My explaination of time travel above is long and confusing, but I love to get all philosophical about everything.  Hey, if you guys got into a discussion about religion, I'd probably write a 5000 word essay about how energy and God are related - yep, I've found a tie between religion and physics (a theory, nonetheless).  In short, it says that since God can be everywhere and is indestructable and that energy can neither be destroyed nor created, then that means energy may be God and vice versa.  God can't be destroyed or created - energy can't be destroyed or created.  There is no other form of elemental material that can say that about itself - even photons can be destroyed, since they are packets of energy and energy can survive on its own.  Quarks can be destroyed as well - energy can't and God can't.  I just wanted to put that idea out there as well - there are tons more theories I have, but I'll stop now!  :lol:  

Yep, welcome to forum indeed. Are you maybe also member on AFC?
Anyway your theories are all physicaly correct.  You mentioned that there is mathematical evidence for some kind of hyperspace or subspace, can you eloborate this some more.
 

Sure, np
This topic was splitted from What Did You Think Of Season 4 Ep1 (http://forum.fleetops.net/index.php?showtopic=1312)

DOCa Cola

The most fascinating technologies for me are the plasma energy conduits and subspace radio, mostly because there is the smallest chance we may figure out how to do that in the not so far future.

Teleportation is also possible. In think that couple years ago some Swiss scientist in their laboratory managed to teleport one photon to another place.
Now about time travel, i know that some scientist managed to send signal ( music) to past. They heard music before they have send that signal. Apsolutely incredible isn't it?

one photon is just has no weight, it's light. so it's faaaaaar in teh furture that they can build something that can actually can transport any material.


tell now i will stik to bio gel packs. i think bacteria can be used for energy

Yep, there are some testings on bacterias to make energy in bateries.
And teleprting photon is not big step but it is start.  

Well, actually, the photon wasn't really teleported, but the information it carried (the way it was polarized, iirc) was. This was notable as the "teleportation" happened instantaneously, and not just at light speed. However, the information needed to decode the information on the photon still needed to travel at "normal" lightspeed, so there was really no time gained.
However this technology can be, and has already been, used to transport information in a completely secure way. The very laws of physics prevent anyone from listening if this quantum cryptography is in use.

As far as I know, there is NO way any information can move faster than light and/or travel into the past that way. The experiment Sfera mentioned is no exception; the information wasn't really recieved before it was sent, the light carrying it was merely "blurred" via some quantum mechanical effect so it seemed to break the ominous light barrier. (Sorry, I can't explain this very well, it's been half a year since I've heard this in uni).

Anyway, as I've heard, they're preparing to teleport the properties of something as "huge" as an atom now. This stuff is really impressive (in a geeky kinda way).

Yeah the "phase velocity" of a wave may exceed the speed of light in a vaccuum, 3 x 10^8 meters per second, but the "group velocity," which is the speed that information (wave packets of finite bandwidth) must ALWAYS be below the speed of light in a vaccuum. I think that's what Yaso Kuuhl was referring to.

On the subject of that swiss teloportation expiriment, how in the world were they even sure that they had really transported something, I don't care how much of a vacume they were preforming this expiriment in, How could they be sure that the very same proton that they "teleported" was the one they picked up at another point, and they didn't just happen to find some atomic debris, or hydrogen minus an electron at a convient location, The expiriment seems invalidated by that alone, does anyone know how the expiriment was preformed, worked, ect.?

Spiners character in this show is an early relative of the Dr. Soong who created Data, Lore, B4 ect.

The Swiss experiment is legitimate, but not teleportation. They demonstrated the principle of quantum intanglement, where a pair of photons created by a single event must always have the same properties, or something like that. In the end no information was transferred, which is why the state of the second could change "instantaneously" with the first. See my post above about speed of information versus speed of action.

Replicators, theoreticaly are possible. Matter to energy conversion and back. But I don't know if we know how to transform any form of pure energy (chemical, electric etc) into matter, but replicators will come in future.

they break down wastes and stuff into nearly the most  basic components (atoms) then rearange those atoms to create things in  replicators.

Ah, so the matter is not converted to pure energy but to basic atoms, that's even better.  

i thought that replecators reorganized the atomec structor of an atom to creat something else like they take the waste of the crew and turn it into a yumy bowl of pudding or a banana or something if you thank about it it is possable

That's the big unknown in replicator technology. It would make sense to create matter by reorganizing other matter, but I think it was stated that replicators turn energy into matter.
Same with transporters (as it's essentially the same technology): Are personell dissolved into energy and transferred to and from the ships as energy beams (hence "beaming") or are they dissolved into their atoms (or possibly their subatomic particles) and transported that way?
I'd go for energy-matter - conversion, as it's even more science-fictional, but who knows?

Yeah the transporters are a big mystery. I can tell you that the food replicators work off tanks of replicants, which are special protein soups or something, not energy. I would assume that the engineering replicators work off of special metal blocks or plastics or something, with some energy mixed in to make things slightly different from ready spares.

no i think it is matter atom reorganizition

hell is that a long text......

perhaps i can shorten that dramatically:

--> The reason for your travel into the past can not be changed because if you change something you would not travel back.

well bacicaly but his explanition is more prestigious

I am not reading that entire post.. but welcome to the forum.. lol :D

yeah.. like i said

I think that the greatest achievement of star trek technology is Lt.Cmd.Data, artifficilly created lifeform. And how is today technology expanding anything is possible.  

no, i know that there is a greater advance in tech......like bioneural gell packs in the E, Voyager, and the Prometheus

if we talk about cyborgs we should look at the borg :borg:  

and if we start talkin bout the borg we can talk about reallife.. :cloak:

Does anyone else think that it's kinda inevitable that we're going to borgify ourselves over the next 100 or 200 years? By that I mean enhance our mental and physical abilities with robotic and cybernetic implants coupled with gene resequencing.

think about, terminator, i,robot, matrix and the other blockbuster movies, the borg... and try to imagine whats a possible future.. if we would live long enough, for sure.. cause i dont think humans can get past the 200year deadline

If we do enhance our selfs i dont think we will be dumb enough to loose our souls or spirit, like the borg have, many couse we have all seen the moves. lol  

naa. the goverment'll find a way to remove our conciosness and make us mindless automitons.

they already have: the united states armed forces

lol. :lol:  

lol

well if you remember the movie and voyager, the borg were not mindless... but its not the future i want to see... well hopefully im dead till that happens

/edit: i watched the enterprise episode today with the borg... its kinda strange... they looked like borg in voyager... but the ship was ... weird... i liked the episode... but i never saw borg without a cube.... it looked like a scoutship... :huh:

they assimalited that ship i think i saw it too

Wasnt it an assimilated earth shuttle?

i dunno... it looked kinda like a spaceshuttle... but with VERY much fantasy while looking at it. but the inside looked like a ship from earth, that is so irritating. it looks like the earth is the source of all the borg :blink:
maybe this all with the borg is not a timeline fault, or with a source in the deltaquadrant. cause they all got a extremly humanoid look beside their implants. my idea is, that the earth sent out a shuttle to explore the universe, and it drifted away, building up their own civilization with the scientists onboard and the technology, they would get a good start. and maybe an experiment got wrong with these nanintes. or they were mislead caused by the isolation and were tryin to "perfect themselves to survive" :huh:

well if that happened, then it would take 70 years to go to the delta quadrant witha shuttle and a shuttle woudn't have alot of people on it to populate a planet and such a technological leap would be quite impossible

not at all... we all saw voyager, and how fast it happened.. maybe the same or anything like this happened to a shuttle... maybe they did it that way like i said above, and assimilated everything nearby... we dont know... well a shuttle got not enough crew, thats right, but well, we all know the borg. beam 1 drone aboard on a mining ship with a crew without weapons, and take a look what happens :D
i dunno.. the borg in voyager were many millions... a sphere with 40k drones on it... a cube with 100k drones,... and so on.. and remember the borg queen in first contact... she said "i´m the beginning and the end"... maybe she was the first officer with a nanite-injection, and everyone after here, was a drone.... i dunno... but it would explain some things... and i like this idea more than the other ideas mentioned in a link somewhere here.. and it would explain the ship design in enterprise... and the lil borg crew on that ship and that everything looked like its from the earth..

little kestion about the borg:

where does the alcove hook up to the drone?
i just can not figure it out

That shuttle ceartainly wasn't responsible for the creation of the borg race, remeber Pircard had already said that the borg were in the Delta quadrant before the whole first contact situation, so the borg couldn't have come from the shuttle although they may have been the ones who alerted the cube seen in Q who

it doesnt physically hook up to the drone

and how could he know that all?
sounds strange that he knows it, but well.. whatever. but the idea with the cube is a good one. cause Q said, he only accelerated the time to show them what they got to fight in the future and that they are not ready.
well... maybe the assimilated other species.. but damn..
u know what i hate bout star trek? that every species looks like, or wanna be like, a human. thats so disgusting. -_-

if you watch "The Chase" TNG it gives you there reason all races seem to look the same.

"the chase" good episode


klingons, romulans, malon, hirogen, ferengi, cardassian, founders, brinari, tallerians, must i go on,............

all of them being related to one another.
damn, that must have been hard for that one race to deposit a bit of thir own DNA into the primordial soup of all the humanoid races throughout the galaxy.

and to sequence certain ones to produce a holographic message when they are combined must have takentechnilogical ingeniusness to be able to do that. i mean, wow, manipulating DNAsequences to produce a holographic image. amazing

well they had who know's how long to invent it. they were around for like dozens of millenia.

timetravel = not possible.
as for this chatter about the borg in enterprise..
erm, those borgs assimilated the mining crew and their small earth ship.. capable of warp 1.7 (or the like)

if you freakin listened then you were learn.

they then assimilated a freighter, thus getting their crew.. if you heard the commander say "the shipsize has increased mass by so and so percent'

Open your ears.

I have a book discribing star trek features and in how much it is possible in real life

but I got very confused since it was in english and thats not my native language :)

I red somthing simulare once, cant remmber the name. what the name of the one you red.

the one that he red

I think i read something like that too.

It may have been "The Physics of Star Trek" by Lawrence M. Krauss.

hears one the phase cloak matter is phased their fore it cannot interact with other matter thus it cant move

i dont know about that one, it can sitll make a warp field and it can still shoot out plasma and the such, jjsut phased plasam. in space there isnt much to push off of any way im prity shure that that the engens we use now dont 'Push' of any thing in space, the push off what thay egect.

so are you sayang s phased energy feild emmitter?

lol no no not a phaser. lol but the energiy is phased just like the ship. if i were to add wite sugar and brown water to gether i would get brown water with wite speck were in if i mixed brown suger with clear water i would get water with brown speks...or jsut brown water. lol